Inverted Chords

[Scottgman]

Man, these things have haunted me. I have a decent understanding of music theory-- but I am wanting to learn more chords with different flavors. Not neccessarily exoctic jazz chords or anything... just different positions of the common chords.

So I stumbled on a pretty good website (www.guitarbasics.com) which walks you through the major scale and each mode and gives several (or all?) of the triads for the given key/mode in the first octave. For example, one Cmin triad is:

E |--11-------------------11-------------------|
B |--13---------------13------13--------------|
G |--12-----------12--------------12----------|
D |--10-------10----------------------10----- |
A |--10---10------------------------------10--|
E |-----------------------------------------------|


Now the root note of this chord is G. I realize that you could just not fret the A string and that would make the root note a C. But how do you know it's a Cmin rather than some type of G chord?

Is it all relative to the other chords being played? In other words if I'm playing a chord progression in C, the above chord would be a Cmin, but if I was playing a progression in G, the chord would be a G?

Can someone out there help educate me on inverted chords?

[dafduc]

The bass note is a G. The root note is a C.

The idea is that all chords (except suspensions and a few other oddities) are built on thirds:

C (D and B strings) is the root
Eb (E string) is the minor third
G (A and G strings) is the fifth (a major third above Eb).

1-3-5 is how you always build a triad - the variation comes from the colors could be a minor or major third, could be a diminished, perfect, or augmented 5th.

If you were to try to build from a G, you wouldn't find a third (B or Bb) or a perfect fifth (D), so that's your clue to build from another note in the chord.

HTH,

Daf

[maestro_dmc]

Hey I have kind of my own deal I came up with to help me find any chord/position on the neck.

[Scottgman]

Maestro , care to elaborate?

Dafduc... thanks.. that makes sense.

[King Elvis]

Originally posted by maestro_dmc
Hey I have kind of my own deal I came up with to help me find any chord/position on the neck.

Dont Bogart the idea!!! Lets hear it.

[PFDarkside]

Well, you could say it's a Gmsus4, but a C (2nd inversion?) makes more sense. But, it really comes down to what the bass is. It really all depends...

[AlChuck]

When there is some ambiguity, you usually call the chord by the root name that it's most sensible.

For example, you might play a CMaj7 to a CMaj6. The CMaj6 could also be considered an Am7 with the third (C) in the bass. So you could argue that it's a I-vi movement, or just think of it as a I chord with a little something going on in the middle of it to make it a little more interesting.

Now , if the next two chords were Dm7 and G7, that would lend more weight to the argument that the Cmaj6 was really the first inversion of the Am7 chord, as that would make the group of chords be a I-vi-ii-V7 progression.

Maybe a better example is a 7th flat 9 chord. In C, you might have a G7flat9 to Cmaj7. This would be considered a V7-I cadence with a little spice (the altered 9). But the notes are exactly the same as the notes of a Bdim7 chord, so I suppose you could argue that it's a vii dim7-I cadence. It's also possible to call it an Abdim7, a Ddim7 or an F dim7.

But the first way of looking at would usually make more sense, since a V7-I cadence is a very standard and common thing, rather than a chord that's not even in the in the key moving to the tonic.

[PFDarkside]

Very nicely explained, AlChuck. I just couldn't think of examples.

[Moonrider]

Originally posted by Scottgman
I am wanting to learn more chords with different flavors. Not neccessarily exoctic jazz chords or anything... just different positions of the common chords.

Can someone out there help educate me on inverted chords?

This is one of my favorite guitar sites, you'll probably find something you can use here:

http://www.guitarnoise.com/guitar/

[maestro_dmc]

Originally posted by King Elvis
Dont Bogart the idea!!! Lets hear it.

SORRY! I was in a hurry, and then I forgot I posted that.
I doubt if I can explain it simply also, so it may take a few posts to get it all out.

Basically, I discovered that all the chords on the neck related to each other in a way that always repeats itself, no matter where you start from. This in itself is no groundbreaking news I'm sure, but I hope that people can use the basic structure of the idea to start moving in some new directions on the guitar.

This has to do with chord "Shapes"

Start with an E Major chord (022100). This is the E chord in the "E Shape"

Next the E on the D string (002000) is the root note of the next position, which is the "D Shape" (xx2454). It doesn't matter that this is difficult to play, that's not the point.

Next comes the E Major in the "C Shape" Which is played x76454
Also difficult, and it fact all but unusable to the average human. Again, not the point.

Next, E Major in the "A Shape" (x7999x)

Next, E Major in the "G Shape" (12-11-9-9-9-12)

Now you're back to the E Shape, one octave above where you started.

OK! So What's the point?

That the 5 open Major chord "Shapes" have some note (or notes) in common, that relates them to the next shape. And if you learn the relationships once, you've got it forever, and don't have to fumble around for that alternate voicing, you can try it out live, and already know you're in the right spot.

That's all I have time to put down right now, sorry if this is over, or (more likely) under your heads, but it opened up the guitar for me once I realized it.

If it helps someone, great!

If its not clear enough (I'm sure it's not) I'll try to clarify.

Dave out

[BluesMeister]

Maestro,

I believe your theory even has a name, I think it's called the CAGED system. It works really well when playing different chord voicings.

--
BluesMeister

[maestro_dmc]

I just knew something so obvious would not be a new idea.

Well, the name makes sense, too.

C-A-G-E-D

HA!

I hope this was a good answer to the original post, anyway!

[Scottgman]

Wow! Thanks for the help!

AlChuck, that is one of aspect of music theory that has confused me for years-- and you just cleared it up for me in one post... you da man!

Maestro, thanks... I'm going to put the axe to work on your post and figure it out.

Since this is my thread... I can hijack it right? heh

So let me ask another question that has bothering the hell out of me for a long time.

Is there any rule as to when it is appropriate to play a note out of key? For instance, in the solo for 'Since I've Been Loving You' by Led Zep (around 3:44) Jimmy plays a couple of Db notes (I think) but the song is in Cmin.

This was really bothering me the other day when I was messing with a little single-note motiff. I wanted to stay in Em but I liked the sound of the F better than the F#:

e |---12b-14-r10--------------10-----------------------------------------|
B |--------------------12h-13--------------13--13-b-15-r-13-------------|
G |------------------------------------------------------------------10--|
D |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
A |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
E |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|


Obviously that F at the end there is out of key (I think anyways), so would this little motiff still be in Em?

My guess: The only rule is if it sounds good it's right... but I want to hear from people that know more theory than I do.

Cheers!

[maestro_dmc]

OK, so I Googled and found a Website that explains CAGED way better than I did, and even shows a diagram of how the shapes interlock, and which notes are in common in each chord which was what I was going to elaborate on later.

CAGED Explained

Be careful though, I think there is a mistake on it:
From: Dansm's Guitar Chord Theorey

The D Chord. D can be formed as a D-derived form with the root on the open 4th string--that's a normal D chord. If you move that up one position, to an A-derived barre chord, you can play it with the root at the 5th fret: x57775.

It's actually two positions, the next should be the C Shape, not the A.

Overall though, an excellent presentation of the system.

[AlChuck]

Scottgman,

If you are in basically a C minor tonality, the note Db is a flat second or ninth. This note occurs in the Phrygian mode (root-flat 2nd-minor 3rd-4th-5th-flat 6th-flat 7th), one of the standard modes derived from the interval scheme of the major scale. This mode is harmonized by a minor seventh chord, but that flat 2nd (9th) and flat sixth give it a very distinct flavor that's quite different than the Dorian mode or the harmonic or melodic minor scales. It's sort of a Spanish flavor, used a lot in flamenco music.

So maybe the notes really are not out of the key after all... maybe it's a Phrygian melody.

This tone also occurs in the Locrian mode, which goes root-flat 2nd-minor 3rd-4th-flat 5th-flat 6th-flat 7th. But this rarely occurs alone, it's usually part of a ii-V7 cadence in a minor key. The ii chord in a minor key is the minor 7th flat 5, often called half-diminished, and the Locrian mode is the normal scale for this chord.

[foo]

The comment about .'. . . if it sounds good, then it is good . . .' is exactly right.

The only thing about knowing the rules is you know when you are breaking them. Beyond that, they have no use in live performance and the 'sounds good, is good' is the only rule that counts.

That Db over a Cmin is (as AlChuck so rightly explained) possibly a modal melody - and therefore right. But the thing that really makes it right is it sounds good.

Try doing that Flat 9 in the bass - particularly as a 'walk-up' sort of thing. e.g. Play an A7 chord (Fifth fret), then play the triad with a Bb in the bass (6x565x) going to a Bmin going to an Emin. These are pretty simple chord progressions, but that Bb in the bass will really spice it up

[PFDarkside]

Originally posted by foo
The comment about .'. . . if it sounds good, then it is good . . .' is exactly right.

The only thing about knowing the rules is you know when you are breaking them. Beyond that, they have no use in live performance and the 'sounds good, is good' is the only rule that counts.

Yes and no (but mostly yes). By knowing all the rules, you have a guide to follow. If you are improvising in Cmin, you know that an Eb is going to fit. Now, an E may sound pretty cool, but if you are playing a C minor scale and throw it in the one odd note will probably "spice it up". If you are randomly plinking out notes until you find something you like it's not going to sound nearly as good.

[AlChuck]

The "rules" are merely an analysis and a framework that has been boiled down from what sounds good.

As PFDarkside suggests, not knowing the rules at all means you have no guide to what sounds good except accident. Eventually a good player who doesn't "know" what he's doing (in the classical sense of knowing how to read, harmonize lines, build chords, etc.) internalizes this same knowledge. They might not know how to write it down or communicate it to other people, but they have learned what sounds good in what circumstance.

When one learns the rules, one gets a framework for hanging this stuff, and one can (at least potentially) arrive at a state of musicality sonner, with the added benefits of being able to write and communicate and also read what other have written.