Very confused

[RideTheCrash]

I've been racking my brain for a while this morning thinking logically of working with direct outs to soundcards etc. Now I posted something like this before but I'll try explain it a bit better. I have a 16 channel Audiopro board with 8 direct outs (it says pre outs, same thing?). Here is a picture of what it looks like back there: http://home.quickclic.net/~jcrawford/Images/inserts.jpg that's one strip.

This might be kind of hard to grasp seeing as you guys don't know my set up. I'll try to explain it. Basically I have the line out from my soundcard going to my receiver (speakers are hooked up to receiver also) and the receiver runs back into the line in of my soundcard (if I remember correctly) and my mixer is hooked to a BBE processor which then runs into my receiver.

I still have a cheap ass Soundblaster soundcard but let's pretend I had like 10 input/output soundcard. How can I make it possible to actually *mix* on my board? Like raise a fader and the bass track comes on or whatever. I'm not sure how I could, or it's possible to go to the multitrack view on Cool Edit, and set each track to a different input/output on the card and run the card to the mixer.

So I could have a bunch of tracks on the multitrack view on Cool Edit, hit play and then be able to mix them on my board instead of dragging around envelopes on the computer.

Sorry I know it's not exactly the clearest explanation but could someone try to give me a lift here?

[Phyl]

I could be in left field, but here goes....

I'm assuming you want to get multiple tracks into cool edit using your soundblaster so you can mix in Cool Edit. You need to record each track individually using the blaster line in. The signal chain would probably be: instrument -> mixer pre-amp -> pre-amp out-> blaster line in. Any instrument that has a line out jack (keyboards, etc) can go directly to the blaster line in, unless you want to use the mixer to being the level up or down.

Once you have all the tracks recorded in Cool Edit, play them back together and get the mix as you want it.

The blaster line out to the receiver is fine for listening to the mix.

To record multiple tracks to the blaster simultaneously, run the instruments through the mixer, adjust levels to taste, run the stereo output to the blaster line in (this will probably require an adapter of some sort), and record. The problem is that you will be won't be able to adjust the various levels within Cool Edit after recording since all you have is a single stereo track.

To record multple instruments simultaneously and still be able to adjust the mix later, lose the blaster, get an audiophile 2496 (or similar). This is what you'll probably do later on anyway.

Did this help?

[RideTheCrash]

Phew, I had to read that over to sink that into my brain. I understand, that's what I get now is just a stereo mix.

But if (hopefully it's a matter of when, I need a job) I have a card like the Audiophile with however many inputs I can set up each track on Cool Edit to a different input, correct? So if I set my snare drum to track 1, and my kick to track 2 and ran a cord from the direct outs on the mixer to track 1 and 2 on the soundcard and set Cool Edit to have the first track in multitrack view to take the snare being input'ed on the first track on the card from the mixer it'd record the snare right?

But my main question was, can I run another back OUT from the soundcard and do it reverse like I described above? Like I have all these tracks on Cool Edit and I hit play and all of them play but each of the tracks on Cool Edit are hooked up to different tracks on the actual board and I can go over to my board and raise a fader to say track 1 which on Cool Edit I had to set to be the snare track and I could do some actual mixing on the board and not do it on cool Edit. So I'd mix it all on the board playing from Cool Edit and when I was done send a stereo mix to the computer? I'm kinda confusing here again...

[Phyl]

But if (hopefully it's a matter of when, I need a job) I have a card like the Audiophile with however many inputs I can set up each track on Cool Edit to a different input, correct?

- Absolutely!

So if I set my snare drum to track 1, and my kick to track 2 and ran a cord from the direct outs on the mixer to track 1 and 2 on the soundcard and set Cool Edit to have the first track in multitrack view to take the snare being input'ed on the first track on the card from the mixer it'd record the snare right?

- Positively!

But my main question was, can I run another back OUT from the soundcard and do it reverse like I described above? Like I have all these tracks on Cool Edit and I hit play and all of them play but each of the tracks on Cool Edit are hooked up to different tracks on the actual board and I can go over to my board and raise a fader to say track 1 which on Cool Edit I had to set to be the snare track and I could do some actual mixing on the board and not do it on cool Edit.

- Modebitedly! Assuming the unit you buy (audiophile or similar) has multiple outputs, you can assign each Cool Edit track to a different output. Each of these outputs could go to a different channel on the mixer – I assume that’s what you mean by “board” – where you can adjust the levels, and then send a stereo mix back to the audiophile. I assume you’re doing this so you can insert outboard effects into each of the mixer channels…correct? Or maybe you’re doing it because you want to mix in real time with actual faders instead of phucking around with the mouse on the computer screen…I think I get it now…

[RideTheCrash]

Yes! Thank you man, that's it. I want to try some mixing in real time, umm, I've been dragging around dots in Cool Edit for too long, heh. So yeah, soon I'll get a card where I can do stuff like that. Thanks again.

[RideTheCrash]

Oh, one last thing. If I run a cord from the "pre out" on a channel to the soundcard ... and then to do real time mixing I need a cord going back into the channel ... where do I put this cord in? http://www.quickclic.net/~jcrawford/inserts.jpg

[Phyl]

The link didn't work.

If you are doing the real time mixing thing you need a cable from each soundcard output to each mixer channel line in. I don't know what purpose the cable from the mixer channel pre-out to the soundcard serves.

Give me some more info, I think I'm missing something.

[RideTheCrash]

Shit, I was just reading some stuff on the net, but I'll get to that later. A cable would run from the pre (it's calle dpre on my mixer, I assume it's direct) out the soundcard so...like I said above, each channel has it's own track blah blah blah.

Anyway it was saying things like tape return and sends. The image is supposed to be: http://www.quickclic.net/~jcrawford/Images/inserts.jpg sorry. I don't have those 2 things, just that "pre out" so I may not be able to do real time mixing on this board.

[TexRoadkill]

Are you actually wanting to move the audio out and through the mixer or do you just want to mix with faders?

There are advantages to actually mixing on an analog board if you have some nice processors and good mixer. If you just want fader control over the tracks then you should just get a Control Surface.

[RideTheCrash]

To mix the stuff with my faders. I don't think my mixer can handle it through because it doesn't not have separate tape send and returns. Just that thing that says "pre out" and "insert" which leaves me to wonder which it actually is.

[TexRoadkill]

When you mix through a mixer you don't have to send all the individual tracks back to the computer. You just record the main buss out of the mixer back in the computer or on a seperate recorder. All you need are line inputs.

The inserts can also be used as sends/returns if needed. That is one way to send individual channels out to a recorder and bypass all the other circuitry in the mixer.

[RideTheCrash]

I think I messed up what I was saying. When I'm mixing on the board (mixer, yes) I don't need to send everything individually back, like you said, sorry about that.

So I can just use that jack labelled "insert" to send the tracks individually to my (currently imaginary) soundcard. And I use the insert jack again to send them back into the mixer to mix with? And then I send a stereo mixdown of what I've done back to my computer...

Oi, sorry about all this but like I said my brain goes nuts trying to figure this out in my mind.

So basically, that insert jack will work as both a send and return?

[RideTheCrash]

On my cheap ass Soundblaster I tried going from that jack to my line in on my soundcard and I got nothing. Probably just an insert for effects. But leaves me to wonder why it says "pre out" next to it.

[Phyl]

Are you saying that when running a cable from the mixer insert jack to the soundblaster input you get nothing?

Here's how the insert jack on most mixers works. First of all, it's meant to be used with a tip/ring/sleeve (TRS) cable that has three wires internally. The mixer sends the signal out on one wire and expects to receive it back on another wire. The third wire is common (ground). This arrangement is used to send the output of a mixer channel to an effects unit and then receive it back on the same jack.

TRS cables for mixers usually have 1/4 inch plugs at each end and each plug has a tip, ring, and sleeve. Sometimes they have a 1/4 TRS plug at one end and two 1/4 inch plugs at the other end, each with a tip and sleeve.

Try using a 1/4 inch TRS cable to connect the mixer to the soundcard. You'll probably need an adapter to get from 1/4 inch TRS to the line-in on your soundcard.

Tex - whatcha think?

[RideTheCrash]

Basically what I tried was since it was a quarter inch jack I ran a guitar cable from it, then put this adaptor thing on the end to another cable that would fit in the soundcard jack (line in) and I got squat.

So is this jack only for FX units, and not things like sending audio from my computer back to the mixer to mix in real time, like I had talked about above?

[Phyl]

Does each of your mixer channels have a 1/4 inch line in jack? Most do, on my mackie it's right next to the xlr input jack. That's what you would normally use to input audio into a mixer channel.

To get audio out, I suspect you could either use the pre-out shown in your diagram, or the insert jack. As mentioned earlier, the problem with using the insert jack is that it's a three conductor interface so you have to use a 3 connector TRS cable, and also need to know whether the mixer sends the signal out on the tip or ring portion of the plug. It's not always obvious, although most manufacturers do it the same way.

Same goes for using the insert jack to input audio. You have to know whehter the mixer uses the tip or ring to input audio.

As I mentioned, the jack is made to accept a TRS plug which has three wires internally. It looks just like a guitar plug, until you look closely at the plug itself, them you will see that it has three distinct sections - a tip, ring, and sleeve.

If you are still having problems, draw a picture with all the inputs/outpus of both the soundcard and mixer labelled. E-mail it to me and we'll go from there.

[RideTheCrash]

Bit lost on the tip ring sleeve stuff. But here is the back of my mixer sloppily combined 3 pictures: http://home.quickclic.net/~jcrawford.../mixerback.jpg (channel 9 got cut out, ah well, it's fried anyway)

See only 8 of my channels have it. It goes (from top to bottom) mic connection (XLR) then the jack under it says "pre out" to the right of it, and it says INSERT underneath. Then the jack below that says "HI-Z [LINE] IN". The other 8 channels are only XLR mic connections.

I bought this off my step-cousin whom didn't have the manual (he bought it off someone too) which sucks. I can't find much of anything on this board (Audiopro boards like this aren't exactly made anyway, it's Yorkville I believe...) let alone it's manual. But the picture will give a good idea of what I'm dealing with.

My soundcard is nothing special to take a picture of. If you want more I'll take 'em.

[Phyl]

I'm confused.

To get audio from your mixer into the soundcard you have now, try either of the following:

1) pre-out -> TRS cable ->adapter->sound card line in

or

2) insert -> TRS cable->adapter ->sound card line in

To get audio from your soundcard into the mixer:

sound card line out -> adapter -> TRS cable -> High Z in.

The TRS cable (sometimes called a balanced cable) will look like a guitar cable unless you look very closely at the plug.

Let us know how it works.

[RideTheCrash]

Oohh okay. So the line in works that it'll send the audio back into the mixer? I figured it was only like for direct bass recording and stuff. Blah, stupid of me.

Only thing left for me to grasp is this TRS cable thing. I'll ask my dad about it, we have so much stuff in this house it's hard to know what's what.

I don't know how fast I can try this because this soundcard is such crap. My line out is used up from a cable going to the receiver for the speakers.

[Phyl]

Originally posted by RideTheCrash
Oohh okay. So the line in works that it'll send the audio back into the mixer? I figured it was only like for direct bass recording and stuff. Blah, stupid of me.

I suspect the line in on your mixer serves a dual purpose, direct recording of guitar/bass, or as a typical line in jack. It looks like it's labelled Hi-Z (Line In) but its hard to tell because of the glare.

Only thing left for me to grasp is this TRS cable thing. I'll ask my dad about it, we have so much stuff in this house it's hard to know what's what.

I don't know how fast I can try this because this soundcard is such crap. My line out is used up from a cable going to the receiver for the speakers.

[RideTheCrash]

Yes, it does say HI-Z, sorry about that glare, it's a pain. Do you think the reason I tried to run from that output to my soundcard earlier today didn't work because it's not a TRS cable?

[Phyl]

That would be my first guess. If the TRS thing doesn't work, I give up. You'll probably need to ask someone locally to take a look at your set-up.

[RideTheCrash]

Sorry to bring this up again, but the TRS should work because it's balanced?

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by RideTheCrash
Yes, it does say HI-Z, sorry about that glare, it's a pain. Do you think the reason I tried to run from that output to my soundcard earlier today didn't work because it's not a TRS cable?

It probably didn't work because you are trying to use an input as an output. If a jack is labeled HI-Z it is usually an instrument level input.

[RideTheCrash]

No man, I wasn't running it from the HI-Z, I was running it from the thing that said "pre out" next to it. My post was kinda worded funny.