Some PC Multitrack Questions

[zibon]

Greetings, I am new to the BBS. I am an audio/video engineer and a musician in Atlanta, and I had a couple of questions.

My band is getting ready to invest in a multitrack PC-based card. I have already found a wealth of info here on cards (I only know about the high-end, mega-expensive systems) but I would like to hear some opinions on what cards offer the best balance between functionalty and price (under $500 hopefully!). I am looking for an 8 in/out card. I am not really interested in any bells or whistles (fx, midi, extensive I/O ports, etc...) just the 8 basic ins/outs.

And, I am using an older PC at present and would like to know what you had to say about system requirements. It's only a 200mHz with 64MB RAM (Geez, seems like yesterday a 200 was top of the line!).

Also, I have probably every type of multitrack software program (Cakewalk, Cubase, PowerTrax, N-Track, CoolEdit, Vegas, LogicAudio, Samplitude, etc...) and it seems I would have no problem in interfacing with a multitrack card, except for the fact that I think they all stink as far as editing goes (they all seem adequate for recording), except for Sonic Foundry Vegas Pro (again, I'm only used to high-end progs like ProTools, which are very logically designed, as far as editing is concerned, and Vegas is the closest to these). So does anyone know if Vegas supports multitrack recording cards? The manual is a bit vague on the subject of using actual multitrack cards, and I would like to use Vegas exclusively if possible.

One last thing, if you do have some opinions on cards, please leave some info on some good dealers with good prices on these products, on-line or not.

Thanks in advance! Great resource here!

[zibon]

Zibon here again, I just checked out the Guillemont ISIS card on their webpage and it seemed like a good value. It's only 4 out, but I actually don't think I would need 8 out, or even four for that matter, just a stereo mix out. But the price is great! I did see a post on this card earlier, but I would like to know if anyone has tried this card out. Thanks!

BTW, I was wondering what do most people use the 8 outputs on these cards for? Just curious. For my use, I only need 8 in to the PC and then after that I just need a stereo mix out. Just curious as to what you all do with those outs! Might get some creative ideas I hadn't thought about....

zibon

[This message has been edited by zibon (edited 05-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by zibon (edited 05-16-2000).]

[LMSTUDIO]

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SEE YA
BILL

[LMSTUDIO]

yOU SHOULD CONSIDER THIS MIDIMAN DMAN 2044 IF ALL YOU ARE LOOKING FOR IS 4 IN 4 OUT. ITS BRAND NEW.MY PHONE NUMBER IS ON THE AD.I'D BE GLAD TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT. LOOK ON THE MAIN BBS PAGE UNDER ADS FOR MUSIC AND EQUIPMENT FOR SALE FOR DETAILS.

BILL

[zibon]

I wish that was an 8 in/out card, Bill! I really need 8 inputs. I'll check out Event...

zibon

[ola]

The big number of outs are for sending many tracks to a mixer to mix and add effects externally. I you don't plan on using a mixer, you only need stereo out. Unless you're doing surround sound. What are you planning on recording? Mics, line? I have an Audio DSP24 + ADC/DAC2000 setup (http://www.buydigital.co.kr/digital/english/products_showcase.htm) and it's working reat if you want 8 I/O audio only. (It has midi connections to but I've never tried it.) Regardless of if you need all the outs, they might come in handy and for only $350, it's a good value setup.

How many tracks are you planning on mixing, in what bitrate/sampling frequency and with how much effects? With oyur computer setup, you might have to settle for 16bit/44.1kHz, which isn't *too* bad but it's not 24/96. This would give you the option of getting a used multitrack card really cheap as everyone is upgrading to 24/96 now.

Good luck and remember to register your software

/Ola

[zibon]

Thanks for the reply Ola. I am aware of the obvious uses of the outputs, (external fx, mixers, etc) I was just seeing if anyone had some wild ideas I hadn't thought of....
I will check out the card you're using, as it sounds like the right one with the right price. I just need 8 line inputs as I am using an external mixer on the way in. And it would be nice to go to 24bit, but I think 16 will do for the band's purposes. And I have always considered anything above 44.1K to be a bit excessive anyway, but I realize this has been an ongoing debate since the inception of digital recording-whether or not the human ear can even perceive the difference in sound quality at rates above 44.1K, and I have always felt that the difference is virtually nonexistent, so I would be quite content with 44.1K, although 48 would be nice for compatibility reasons.
Thanks so much for the info!

zibon

[drstawl]

No problems using Vegas Pro with a multitrack card. And I only use the extra outs on my GINA for different monitoring systems.

[zibon]

Thanks drstawl. I really wanted to keep using Vegas...now I know I can! Thanks.

zibon

[Sabith]

You want under $500??
For $499 you can get the gadgetlabs 8/24. It has 8in/out and 96khz/24bit recording quality.

So look into it at www.gadgetlabs.com
I have the 424... 4 in/out and I love it.
plus the 8/24 comes with a breakout box so you don't have to molest the back of your computer trying to plug things in.

Hope that helps,

Sabith

[ola]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sabith:
You want under $500??
For $499 you can get the gadgetlabs 8/24. It has 8in/out and 96khz/24bit recording quality.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the 8/24 has "only" 48kHz as max sample rate, unless the specs have changed very recently. However, the 8/24 has balanced line inputs, which my setup doesn't, so if you have long cable runs it may be a good tradeoff. It all depends on your needs. Also the D/A A/D converters on the 8/24 are located on the PCI (as opposed to in the breakout box as on my setup) so you don't get the benefit of having them separated from the interference thet e.g. the processor can cause.

*Wakes up* I just re-read your post and as you're running everything through a mixer first, you'll only need 2' cables to reach the soundcard's breakout box so balanced I/O isn't _that_ important. Also, my setup comes with 24/96 S/PDIF if that is of interest to you. The downside of my setup is the lack of ASIO2 drivers. I'm running n-Track, which doesn't use ASIO, so that was no concern of mine. If you need ASIO, my setup isn't for you. ASIO2 drivers and also W2k support will be made available but no one knows when, which is equivalent to never...

If you're planning on getting a new computer anytime soon or will only mix a few (less than eight perhaps) go for 24/96 otherwise it may me wise to stay with 16bit as your computer may not be able to handle the load. However, most (all?) 24/96 capable cards can also handle 16/44.1 or 16/48 so you may have to settle for that until you have a better computer. I just don't think you'll be able to record eight tracks simultaniously in 24/96 with your setup and as you say you need eight ins, I presume that you plan on recording on all eight at the same time. Maybe you can and only effects will be a problem (take time to mix). You simply have to try. The sad thing though is that by the time you get a new computer that can handle 24/96 properly, prices on 24/96 capable cards will have dropped even further. I bought my setup for $400 and two weeks later, the price was $350

Good luck

/Ola

[Sabith]

well... damn. I assumed that because my Gadgetlabs 424 has 96khz/24 bit recording(I know that for a fact) that the 824 would too. I messed up... but itz kinda wierd though...

Ya... the 8/24 has 48khz/ 24bit recording

[ola]

A simple mistake that anyone could make. I was pretty surprised about it myself. Regardless of whether it can recor in "only" 48kHz, I've heard very few bad things about Gadgetlabs products and they're sure worth considering.

Zibon - Has things gotten any clearer or have we just confused things as usual? Whatever card you're getting, you won't regret getting one with a breakout box. As Sabith pointed out, you don't have to mess behind your computer when you're changing recording gear, which you will be doing alot.

Good luck

/Ola

[zibon]

Sorry, been out of town for a few days (went to Nashville for an exclusive rare club show by one of my favorite bands, King Crimson! Spectacular, by the way...)
Ola, thanks so much for the info. It did help, and I am pretty sold on the same setup you have. The price is right and it seems to have everything I need. And as I stated before, I am quite content with 16/44.1 and I can always beef up the computer later on. And the unbalanced inputs are fine with me. I'm just recording my group live, so everything is line level after the Mackie. And yes, I am going to record 8 tracks at once, but if I do run into some problems with that, I'll get a new motherboard and CPU, they're pretty inexpensive.
But the ASIO issue you bought up may be a concern, but I'm a bit in the dark on these PC issues (used to Mac recording). I'm just running Win98 and as I said before, I have tons of multitrack software. So what do I need to check out as far as the ASIO driver issue is concerned? Do I need to use a prog that does not require ASIO drivers? Like n-track? This may be a concern if this limits the software I can use. I do have n-track, but haven't used it much. Is it reliable and good enough to track with? And does the setup come with its own recording software?
Once again, thanks so much for your (and everyone's) input. It really helped. Like I said, I am really sold on the SoundTrack setup, but if you could shed some light on the ASIO issue, that would help. Much appreciated....
Also, Ola, any other concerns you could think of, please feel free to post them! BTW, the 200mHz CPU I have is a Pentium I MMX.
zibon

[This message has been edited by zibon (edited 05-21-2000).]

[ola]

Zibon - Hop over to http://www.hoontech.com/board/cgi-bi....cgi?db=first, which is Hoontech's Q&A page. There are lots of info there that you won't find in any of the Hoontech documentation or specs (which sucks). Do a search for asio and dsp24 over there and see if you get any good info on asio support for this setup. I know there's no official ASIO 2.0 drivers available but the ASIO drivers seem to be stable and work with Cubase at least. I don't know about the difference between ASIO and ASIO 2.0 (or what ASIO is in the first place) and as I'm using n-Track, I never bothered to find out. I think that you can use most (all?) programs that uses ASIO without ASIO2.0 drivers but that you will miss some of the more advanced ASIO settings. Don't take my word on it though.

Anyway, n-Track is a very good program, especially for your PC's limited power. I think that anything that n-Track can't do is too much for your PC anyway. Are you planning on using your computer for effects and mixing or mainly as a tape recorder and add effects and mix down on your external mixer?

The number of tracks that you can handle isn't too dependent on the CPU power. The hard disk setup is where the limitation is. It's when you're planning on using many effects that you're CPU starts making a difference. However, I think that you can add tons of effects in n-Track and let the program mix down in non-realtime, which of course is less convenient as you can't hear the difference in your effect settings straight away, but with a 200MHz, what can one expect? So what type of hard disk do you have? Download and run dskbench from http://www.sesa.es/dskbench/dskbench.htm and see what dixk read/write speed you have you on your system. It might even be sufficient for 24/96 recording.

One other thing that may be worth considering is 98lite. This is a real killer application/installation shell that allows you to install W98 without all the unnecessary crap like Internet Explorer etc. If you're using the same machine (or at least the same OS) for recording and surfing, you will find it hard to optimise your system for recording. Consider two instances of W98 and a boot manager or even better, use NT for recording.

The setup does not come with any recording SW. At least not from where I bought it.

I don't know if this made sense but feel free to ask more.

Cheers

/Ola

[ola]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by zibon:
When I installed Win98, I didn't install alot of the unecessary components, but I will check 98lite out.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You will be surprised I think 98liteIII lets you skip five times as much unnecessary shite when you install. You can also remove them on your present installation so you don't have to reinstall. Although I recommend that you do it anyway.

Run diskbench from a DOS console like this (withouth the quotes) "dskbench &gt; filename.txt" so you get the results to a .txt file instead of on the sceen. It won't show any output on the screen at all and takes several minutes to run so just wait until it's done.

This is an example of the output on my machine. I have a SCSI UW2 disk but a good IDE is only marginally slower, if at all. The number of tracks are calculated on 16/44.1 (I think) so expect the number of tracks to be three times lower on 24/96.

DskBench 2.12
(c) 1998, SESA, J.M.Catena (cat@sesa.es, www.sesa.es)
Timer Check = 977 (should be near 1000)
CPU Check = 49.65 % (should be near 50.00 %)
CPU index (relative to Pro 200 MHz) = 1.871766
Open = 0 ms
Write = 10044 ms, 25.49 MB/s, CPU = 2.78 %
Flush = 15 ms
Rewin = 0 ms
Read = 9775 ms, 26.19 MB/s, CPU = 2.53 %
Close = 14 ms
BlockSize = 131072, MB/s = 11.93, Tracks = 141.89, CPU = 2.25 %
BlockSize = 65536, MB/s = 12.32, Tracks = 146.45, CPU = 1.58 %
BlockSize = 32768, MB/s = 6.50, Tracks = 77.27, CPU = 1.37 %
BlockSize = 16384, MB/s = 3.30, Tracks = 39.22, CPU = 1.34 %
BlockSize = 8192, MB/s = 2.71, Tracks = 32.27, CPU = 2.37 %
BlockSize = 4096, MB/s = 1.87, Tracks = 22.23, CPU = 3.33 %

If I remember correctly, n-Track uses an average block size of 70k, or so, with the default settings. Slackmaster posted details on this in some other thread (http://homerecording.com/ubb/Forum14/HTML/000942.html) Note that Slacks results on his IDE are actually better than my SCSI. It's all up to being the master of configurations. I'll beat him with my new computer though I think a RAID0 array of ATA66 disk will beat him. We shall see..

Well, that's all for now. Glad I could help

/Ola

[Slackmaster2K]

Ola,

Thank you! I need to talk to you about getting some more benchmarks.

I've always said that with the limited activity of a multitracking environment, SCSI and modern IDE would perform similarly. They both spin at 7200RPM and accessing 10-30 large files at a time isn't a situation that will benefit from a SCSI controller.

In a server type environment, however, SCSI absolutely smokes...so don't think that I'm "anti-SCSI"

Your RAID system should kick some ass

Slackmaster 2000

[ola]

I got the SCSI because some PC recording guys said it was necessary. That was before I did my homework and what did they _really_ know? Well, I was only renting it dirt cheap from the company so the price didn't matter that much. If you need benchmarks, either contact me per e-mail or just toss them out your questions/scenarios here.

/Ola

[zibon]

Thanks again ola. I'm not too concerned about fx, and I'm used to rendering my fx non-realtime, so that's not much of a concern. The way we are recording now (just stereo in, then overdubs later) I have used over 8 tracks with realtime fx with no problem (with VegasPro), but I will check out my disk speed with dskbench. Can you give me some ideas on what speeds would be adequate for a specified number of tracks and at what sample/bit rate? I haven't gone to the dskbench site yet, so if they have these listings there, you don't have to explain it all here! And I will check out the 98lite, as my setup is purely for recording. When I installed Win98, I didn't install alot of the unecessary components, but I will check 98lite out. Thanks again, you've really been a great help.

zibon

[This message has been edited by zibon (edited 05-25-2000).]

[Cakey2]

What about a 10 000 rpm SCSI drive?

If I wanted to blow my cash?

Actually, I heard a rumour that 10 000 rpm IDE drives were being thought of.

Sorry to change the subject...

Matt

[ola]

Mine is a 10,000rpm SCSI and as I wrote, SM2k's IDE os slightly faster in some aspects. The IDE vs, SCSI issue has probably been the single most discussed in this forum. My conclusion from countless articles, benchmarks and testing is that for a DAW, with relatively few but very large files, IDE will beat SCSI as often as vice versa but in server applications, with _many_ users and lots of relatively small reads/writes, SCSI is the only option. However, feel free to prove the opposite. I think a RAID0 ATA66 array is the most powerful disk option for DAWs at pressent. I will giva a report when I build my new computer, with or without dual Celerons...

I'm pretty sure that 10,000rpm IDE will prove to be the best option for DAWs but that has to be tested. ATA33 has been proved to beat ATA66 in some DAW scenarios so one never knows.

The truth is in here

/Ola

[zibon]

Thanks again everyone for the info. The dskbench thing had me a bit confused, as well as all of the talk of drives and their speeds (I guess I still don't know what I should be using as a comparision-what is the minimum speed I can get by with for 8 tracks 16/44?), but I ran it and my results appear to be similar to what I've seen elsewhere. My PC is just my keyboardists old setup, no special drives or anything, just the usual IDE drive that comes with a standard PC setup, but the results appear to be adequate. I don't know what drive is in there or the type of board or anything, so if it sounds like I missed something, let me know.
Also, does everyone recommend switching to NT or 2000? I've got NT 4 Workstation, so I could install it. Just wanted to see what everyone thought about NT or 2000....
I'm trying to make this purchase as trouble free as possible! Some of this stuff is making me wonder....

thanks again,
zibon

[zetabass]

Just thought I'd mention the midi man audio delta 10/10 8 i/o line and digital stereo i/o with midi in out and word clock and all that jazz. I love mine. I have however run into a problem with jumps and glitches in my playback I'm running win98 on a pII 350 with 64mb ram and 8m diamond stealth video card a 8+gig high speed WD HD oh and the delta
I'm Glad I didn't book any demo work for a while I just switched from a vs880 to this and the sound is great but I can't mix down because it stops/jumps/skips during playback (Very agravating) I used the echo reporter and it claims my hard drive should be able to do something like 23 playback and 7 recording tracks simultanously Not that my demo bands usually want to do that.....

Any advice on how to get this playback smoothed out?

-Brad

p.s. I already switched to server mode and disabled my video accelleration......

[ola]

Just a trivial thing; Have you defragmented lately (just before you mixdown)? It can make all the difference and the disk can be too fragmented in just a couple of hours if you add and delete a lot of tracks.

I suggest that you get more RAM. Double what you have now and you should get a substantial performance increase.

Also, does your SW allow you to mixdown without listening (i.e. not in realtime)? If so, you may solve the problem temporarily by mixing down at whatever speed the SW requires and check the result when it's done. It's too much of a pain to do it permanently but maybe you can do it until you figure out the problem.