what's my latency, could be better?

[Noodlehoss]

Hi-

I've just indstalled a Delta66/Omni Studio in my system. After running the wave profiler and adjusting the slider for best sound in Cakewalk HS 2002, here's what I get (see attached image). Does this mean my latency is 17.4, or is it 52.2? Both seem high. Here's what I'm running...

pentium IV 2.4
512 RAM
Win XP
M-Audio Delta66 w/ Omni I/O
Cakewalk Home Studio 2002 - only a 2 track project
Latest M-audio drivers (MME seems to be the only one that works with HS2002 - right?)

Where is my weak link here? Is there a setting somewhere that can bring the latency down?

[moskus]

Your latency is 52.2 ms...

But let's fix that!

Open the Delta Control Panel and set the DMA buffers to a low value. Then open Sonar and set the "Buffers in playback queue" to 2. Reprofile your card and set the latency down, down down (your machine should handle it well)...Voila!

[Noodlehoss]

thanks moskus-

i'll try that when I get home tonight. I've also just downloaded the new Delta66 driver (5.10.00.29) which just came out a few days ago. Is there a difference in achiveable latency values between Home Studio and Sonar? Does either have WDM capability yet?

[dachay2tnr]

Sonar has WDM capability (and ASIO as well). Not sure about HS. If it does, switching to WDM will be the biggest thing you can do to drop your latency.

However, unless you are using input monitoring, I don't see why you need better latency. The level you're at now should be fine for mixing.

Help me out guys - what is the drive for extremely low latency levels (besides Input Monitoring)? Running very low latency settings puts a tax on the system that will limit the track count and plug-in performance. That, to me, is more important than living with a few millisecond delay.

I've mixed with >300ms latency, and while the momentary delay can be a tad annoying, it certainly wasn't a hindrance. At 50ms, it would hardly be noticeable.

What am I missing?

EDIT: I also noticed you're not using the 24 bit capability of the Delta 66. Howcum??

[garrigus]

Hi dachay2tnr,

In addition to input monitoring, low latency comes in handy when working with software synths. In order to play them in real-time effectively, you need to have very low latency so that you don't hear that delay you mentioned.

Best regards,
Scott

--
Scott R. Garrigus - Author of Cakewalk, Sound Forge and Sound Forge 6, SONAR and SONAR 2 Power! books; Publisher of DigiFreq. Win a free copy of PowerFX's Dyad DXi software synth and learn more cool music technology tips and techniques by getting a FREE subscription to DigiFreq... over 14,000 readers can't be wrong! Go to:
http://www.digifreq.com/digifreq/

[cstockdale]

Originally posted by dachay2tnr
Sonar has WDM capability (and ASIO as well). Not sure about HS. If it does, switching to WDM will be the biggest thing you can do to drop your latency.

However, unless you are using input monitoring, I don't see why you need better latency. The level you're at now should be fine for mixing.

Help me out guys - what is the drive for extremely low latency levels (besides Input Monitoring)? Running very low latency settings puts a tax on the system that will limit the track count and plug-in performance. That, to me, is more important than living with a few millisecond delay.

I've mixed with >300ms latency, and while the momentary delay can be a tad annoying, it certainly wasn't a hindrance. At 50ms, it would hardly be noticeable.

What am I missing?

EDIT: I also noticed you're not using the 24 bit capability of the Delta 66. Howcum??

Like Garrigus said, you should try using a MIDI controller to play a drum part, or organ or piano or any other soft synth with a latency any greater than about 10ms, it is painful. Some of us these soft synths extensively.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally posted by cstockdale
Like Garrigus said, you should try using a MIDI controller to play a drum part, or organ or piano or any other soft synth with a latency any greater than about 10ms, it is painful. Some of us these soft synths extensively.

Fair enough. But my point is still that I think too many people are chasing ultra low latencies who really don't need them - other than bigger, faster = better syndrome.

I was not trying to imply that there were not useful reasons for attempting to get low latency from your system. Only that, if you don't really need it, you are paying a high tax in CPU overhead.

[cstockdale]

fiar enough, I am sure there are a lot of people chasing low latency who don't need it. It seems a lot like overclocking... I have never seen the need for getting my PC faster than it already is, but some people will pay hundreds of dollars to squeeze those last few percent of performance out of their machines...

kind of like cars!

[Noodlehoss]

...that's pretty much it for me - recording softsynths from my midi controller in real time. That and monitoring effects while recording guitar parts. I want the experience to be as 'musical' as possible - less mechanical.

I also noticed you're not using the 24 bit capability of the Delta 66. Howcum??

...well, I just got the 24 bit card - haven't fully explored the benefits of that capability. All of my projects and samples that I use right now are 16 bit. Not sure what all is involved in making the switch. I know the sound quality would improve - any other significant benefits?

[dachay2tnr]

To make the switch, just toggle the two settings on the Audio Options page labeled Audio Driver Bit Depth, and File Bit Depth. Change them from 16 to 24.

Benefits are lower noise floor when recording, and more accurate/precise processing of many plugin effects, fades, etc.

[Noodlehoss]

Open the Delta Control Panel and set the DMA buffers to a low value. Then open Sonar and set the "Buffers in playback queue" to 2. Reprofile your card and set the latency down, down down (your machine should handle it well)...Voila!

For some reason, even after trying this, playing around with these values, doing most of the musicxp.com tweaks, and installing the new drivers, I still get 52.2 ms. Any lower causes crackling. Something doesen't seem right.

I think I'll try contacting m-audio and cakewalk. maybe try the sonar demo.

any other ideas are welcome.

[moskus]

You have re-profiled your card, right? As in hit the "Waveprofiler"-button under Options -> Audio...





And Dachay: Low latency rule either you need it or not!

[Noodlehoss]

yes - reprofiled repeatedly when trying different buffer values

[moskus]

What happens if you try ASIO-drivers?

Options -> Audio -> Advanced and select ASIO from the drop-down box.

[Noodlehoss]

i'll try it and let you know

[Noodlehoss]

Alright - I'm in business now. Last night I was able to run smoothly at 4.0 ms. Man, what difference when monitoring the guitar with real time effects, and playing synths on the keyboard!

I ended up having to move the Delta 66 to a different PCI slot so that it could have its own IRQ address (not shared with another device). Then, in HS 2002 I unchecked 'always use MME drivers'.
After playing with different buffer settings in CW and in the M-Audio panel, I got a stable 4.0

Here is a site that explains the procedure in detail-

http://pub136.ezboard.com/fdelta1010...icID=339.topic

It's a message board for Delta card users. Lot's of bashing going on there. I can't complain though. The Omni/Delta66 looks like it'll serve my needs just fine for now.

Thanks for your replies.

[moskus]

Congrats! Glad you got it fixed!