Writing a piano sonata

Orpheus · #1 06-08-2003

hi.

i want to write a "true" piano sonata. i tried to look up sonata on the net, but the faqs were unclear. can someone describe the format of a piano sonata clearly and in depth?

thanks.

badgas · #2 06-08-2003

Basiclly a sonato is an instrumental musical composition typically of three or four movements in contrasting forms and keys

If you listen to a lot of them, you'll get the feel and the style.
Wish I could wave a wand and help you more, but that's all I can do.

Yeah, I know, "So why did you reply"?

I guess I wanted to help.

Orpheus · #3 06-09-2003

thanks..... naw.... glad you read the post.

yes, it's usually 3-4 movements. ...the first one is usually medium speed. second is slow. third or fourth is the fast ending.

but there is a technical form for a "true" sonata. i guess i'm interested in what makes something a real sonata. i heard that the beethoven sonatas are not truly real sonatas. ....and some other famous ones too. so, i'm just trying to learn up on this form, as i'm writing some solo piano stuff right now.

so... if anyone knows the technical form, please post. also the music theory behind it (key change rules, .... and forgot the word..... the phrase ending progressions, standard lengths, style... etc....) i know each movement is supposed to have a certain pattern of repetition too.... but the patters posted on the net are very vague.... please help.

Roel · #4 06-09-2003

That is alot of theory to write down here... (I'm a music theory student, btw)

What style do you want to write in? Do you want to write a neo-classical work? Neo-romantic?
The sonata form has been constantly evolving since it's first use. Beethovens Sonata's are way more complex than Mozart's. Mozart does more complex things than Haydn... So, there's not just 'a sonata' form, it kinda depends on where you are in history. For example, the first part, which is in sonata form (ABA) normally had 2 theme's. Well, in his most famous symphony (the unfinished), Schubert uses 3 theme's instead of 2...

Here's some links:
about the symhony, but symphony's use about the same sonata-form

Here's one with the development described thru history...

And here's a link to links: links

If you have more questions, I can help you out probably. What is your background? I want to compose too, but I don't feel educated enough to write down something that makes sense and is good enough for me.

I know more music theory than some trained professionals and still use this excuse. Actually I'm just a lazy fokow.

Roel · #5 06-09-2003

Quote:

Originally posted by Orpheus
but there is a technical form for a "true" sonata. i guess i'm interested in what makes something a real sonata. i heard that the beethoven sonatas are not truly real sonatas.

Now I don't know them all by heart, but most of them are.

The thing is, they don't strictly follow the classical sonata form, but that is because this is the romantic period. So, here you have the romantic sonata form. Which is alot more free, uses more theme's, longer developments, the idea of theme is broadened... The form develops thru time...

Orpheus · #6 06-09-2003

hey. i read the link for the "development described through history" and it was pretty helpful. it describes pretty much what i'm asking for about a sonata allegro form..... however, it seems like this is only the first movement right? what if i want 3 movements.... is there a smiliar discussion for the remaining 2 movements?

thanks.... that sonata allegro form is really in depth... exactly what i'm looking for.

i'm actually writing a more "new age" sounding sonata. not quite classical, and not quite mushy modern yanni stuff. somewhere in between. i do like development..... i hate writing short pieces.

Roel · #7 06-10-2003

This one has some info over the 4 parts of the symphony.

This one describes other forms.

Here I found this:

There is no consistent trend in the number and order of movements. The three-movement sequence, fast-slow-fast, predominates; a fourth is often present, but its character and placing vary. The so-called 'Italian plan' in two movements, usually both fast or one fast and one moderate, occurs in about half the sonatas of the main Italian composers from Alberti to Boccherini, and the single-movement keyboard sonatas of the three notable pre-Classical composers in Iberia - Seixas, Scarlatti and Soler - are often paired by key in the source manuscripts.

The first movement of Classical sonatas is most often in Sonata form. The slow movement may also approximate to sonata form, though usually with less development and a more simple phrase structure; other common forms include ABA or AB designs, rondos, variations and free fantasias. Among forms used for inner and final movements are the minuet or scherzo, the rondo or sonata-rondo and variations.

Sarah Green · #8 06-18-2003

"Sonata form" normally applies to the first movement of a symphony or sonata.

Basically:

EXPOSITION: consisting of FIRST SUBJECT in the principal key, a bridge to the SECOND SUBJECT in a related, e.g. dominant, key, and possibly a CODA,

DEVELOPMENT or working out (i.e. variations, meanderings etc on the first and second subjects,

RECAPITULATION of the first two subjects.

These are formal rules as used by C.P.E Bach and Haydn. Practically every composer since then has broken these rules.

"Rondo-Sonata Form" is similar, except that the first subject is repeated after the second, and there may be a third subject as well. A Rondo is a round, or canon.

As composer, of course you're free to construct your piece any way you like. I think a degree of formality lends coherence. The same applies to songs - many, if not most, older Broadway songs are very tightly constructed indeed - the lyrics as much as the melody. Listen to Cole Porter (and enjoy!).

Best of luck with your composition.

Sarah

Synesthesia · #9 07-01-2003

As Sarah said, "sonata form" usually only refers to the form of the first movement of a multi-movement piece. A sonata will usually have only one actual sonata movement in it, which can make things quite confusing for music fans.

Formally, a sonata follows a very strict form (Exposition [Theme] twice, development [variation on the theme or another theme with a great deal of modulation], recapitulation of exposition often in another key) but few composers have followed this exact format since Haydn. Experiment experiment experiment!

I've also found that second movements are often Theme and Variations, third movements are often minuets and fourth movements are often rondos of some sort...but again, this is only a trend, not a rule, so feel free to deviate accordingly. The flow of a piece should follow the development of emotions and the general feel you want to create, not some archaic rule of form.

-Derrick

Orpheus · #10 07-01-2003

So, what you guys are basically saying is that as long as I write the first movement in this sonata form, I can basically write the rest any way i want to?--and i still can call my piece a "sonata?"

Synesthesia · #11 07-01-2003

Pretty much. Like any other genre, classical-style music is as structured or as free form as you want it to be.

-Derrick

Orpheus · #12 07-01-2003

cool.

hope to post this "sonata" on the mixing clinic within 1/2 year.

thansk guys,
dean

Synesthesia · #13 07-01-2003

Looking forward to hearing it! I'd take a bet that there aren't too many classical composers on this site. What's your planned instrumentation? Are you gonna MIDI up an orchestra or do it for a smaller ensemble and record it? And it also might help to do some more research, maybe looking through some textbooks or such, or just listening to lots of different sonatas from lots of different periods and composers...though I've studied music, I'd hardly call myself an expert on classical music, and some more qualified folks might have differing, um, opinions, on this subject.

Good luck!

-Derrick

Orpheus · #14 07-01-2003

well, i had posted some old music on the clinic when i first joined. and they got bad reviews. but it's mostly because not many people here listens or even has the ability to appreciate such music, as you pointed out. you should read the criticism i got. i can handle people pointing out what i do wrong, ...but most people who responded couldn't get over their musical preferences and didn't know how to crtitique a non-guitar instrumental. most responses ended with, "But I don't like this kind of music, so you don't need to take me seriously." so... i didn't get much useful feedback.

anyway... to answer your question, i use MIDI exclusively. but i've gotten quite good at it over the years. it won't fool you into thinking that the recording is real, but it will definately sound good. well,.... people not in the know, as in the general audience, would be fooled... but i'm sure no one here would be.

and yes, everytime i drive my car, i tune into the classical channels. not because i enjoy much of the music, but just to learn...... hopefully it will show.

thanks.