DI for acoustic/electric guitar

[sipleybeck]

What's a good DI box for recording acoustic/electric guitar - in the $100 - $200 range?

I have only a few pieces of gear - an RE20, a Symetrix 528E, and a pair of Yorkville YSM1's (driven by a twent-five year old Sansui AU-717).

I'm just learning how to record. If I get the stuff connected right it's a good day.

I have two projects in the works. One is a story teller, the other is a songwriter. I am recording into PA8 (it may be old, but it's good enough for me at this stage).
I plan to "produce" the songwriter's material by adding real instruments such as electric bass and guitars, and the virtual instruments that come with PA8 (piano, drums).

My ears are not educated enough to tell the difference between a "very good" piece of gear and a "great" piece of gear (though they are educated enought to tell that PA8's drums sound like shiitake), and price is a concern. I just want to be able to record guitars direct and have them sound very good, or better, with very little noise.

Any advice?

[DigitMus]

Well, you may not want to hear this, but my advice is to up your budget to the $300 range and get the Groove Tubes Ditto. They claim it is the same exact circuitry as the Vipre's instrument input (I'm not gonna open mine up - or my Vipres to check) and I can tell you it sounds fantastic. I used to hate the sound of an electric-acoustic (with a bridge transducer) plugged in for recording - then I got a Vipre, and later a Ditto. Sell your blood, mug a hooker, do whatever you have to, but get this box!

Scott

[b0b]

If you just want a DI box to put between your preamp and mixer/soundcard the Palmer PDI-09 might be something for you. I've been hoping to get one for myself for sometime but you can't get them here...

Read user reviews at Harmony Central

http://www.harmony-central.com/Effec...PDI_09-01.html
http://www.harmony-central.com/Effec...nction-01.html

[iwanarock]

You should look at The POD 2.0 from Line 6 it is a great direct box for recording electric guitars, plus provides all kinds of Amp modeling capabilities. With Line 6 introducing the POD XT last year you can get a POD 2.0 for around $200 bucks and it is well worth the money. It is also useable for Acoustic guitar's if you work with it a little bit.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by sipleybeck
My ears are not educated enough to tell the difference between a "very good" piece of gear and a "great" piece of gear (though they are educated enought to tell that PA8's drums sound like shiitake), and price is a concern. I just want to be able to record guitars direct and have them sound very good, or better, with very little noise.

Any advice?

DI's are handy for bass and live work but recording direct guitars sounds like ass. There is no way around that. Sometimes a bit of a direct signal can sound good mixed in with a miced acoustic or amp but by themselves they are next to worthless.

With that in mind just get a cheap Whirlwind DI if you want to have the capability but spend the real cash on another guitar amp, mic or preamp or something more usefull.

[Big Kenny]

i use a presonus acoustiq for recording and live applications
it has the unique capabilities of splitting the signal from a fishman into two signals (use a trs cable) one carrie sthe mic and the other the bridge saddle
it also has a parametric eq (for mids) as well as a bass and treble attenuator
it uses a 12 ax7 tube anhat is variable as well
not noisy at all for recording and very clean
In His Name
Big Kenny

*although, at its best, it's nowhere near a good mic job

[sipleybeck]

I must apologize for not explaining clearly my intentions. I had not considered using a DI box on electric 6-string guitar – just acoustic/electric guitar and electric bass.

As I mentioned, I have an untrained ear and so, rely heavily on this forum for reliable information.

I bought a passive box at a local music store several weeks ago. I forget the brand. It was only $40, and was the only thing available. It wasn’t something I wanted to invest money in, particularly, but I had committed to a project for a guy and I needed something, anything. It came with a “return within 7 days if you’re not satisfied” sales pitch, so I took advantage of the situation.

Posts suggest that an active DI will have a better high end than a passive. Is the Whirlwind active? Is this the same company that makes cables?

Years ago I had occasion to use a box that looked, as I recollect, very similar to the Klark Teknik LBB100. At the time, I was concerned only with putting something into the box, not what came out of it.

How does the Whirlwind compare to the Klark?

How do these compare to the ART pres (MP, OPL, MP Studio, StudioV3) I have heard so much about.?

r

[TexRoadkill]

The whirlwind is another cheapie passive but they probably have some actives also.

Bass DI's are very subjective and if you are going to spend a few hundred then try them out and find one you like. For acoustic I was saying that even the best will fall short of a mic so you might as well put the money to better use. Your high end response will probably be more limited by the acoustic pickups than the DI.

[chessrock]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
Your high end response will probably be more limited by the acoustic pickups than the DI.

Exactly.

[EVEykel]

If you're looking for a very decent preamp for 6 string acoustics, go for the LR Baggs PARA Acoustic DI. It will rock your face off. Or if you've got 500 bucks to drop, get an Avalon U5

[cavedog101]

We too have the Baggs...very very cool ......surprisingly no one has mentioned the Countryman active DI.....It is the original industry standard and they come equipped with a jensen transformer...around $150 street....we also have one of these.
For $500, the Avalon U5 is the best.Especially on the bass and keys.

[EVEykel]

I have an Avalon for my acoustic, and it sounds so good I can hardly remember the words to any of my songs. I just want to sit there and play the guitar and not sing. Its really quite pathetic.

[sipleybeck]

I found some info on the Countryman DI, the LR Baggs Para Acoustic DI, and the Klark Teknik.

I also took another look at the ART OPL and V3.

The Avalon is out of my price range. (Is it a two-channel DI?)


Since acoustic guitar will record better when miced, I guess one should choose a DI box primarily with bass in mind.

Having said that, the V3 (at $130) sounds good because of its presets.

But the OPL (at $60) will do almost as much, and at less than half the price.

The Countryman (at $150) sounds good because of its class A circuit (let’s pretend that I know what that means) and the fact that it will run on phantom power (with my 528E) or 9v battery.

The Baggs has the same features, plus EQ, notch filter, and a presence control (I remember how great the presence control made the Marshal MKII sound). I don’t recall the price on the Baggs ($???).

The LBB100 doesn’t have any of these features, and it costs more ($185). But it’s made in a cave in Iceland!

What’s a fella to do?

[EVEykel]

Just a personal note, I would not waste my money on anything that ART makes, especially their OPL. I bought one a little while back because it was cheap and simple, and I took it back the day after. It is a complete waste of money, unless you want to add some serious humming to your tunes. I haven't tried the V3 yet, but I will almost guarantee you better results with almost anything else that you could try. Trust me on the L.R. Baggs preamp. It is seriously one of the best purchases that I made for my acoustic. They're going for around $150.00 right now, but if you're interested then I'll sell you mine for $100.00. It is in perfect condition, minus the velcro on the bottom from my pedal board. If you're interested, e-mail me at EVEykel@hotmail.com.

[sipleybeck]

EVEykel,

That's a very tempting offer. Tell me, why are you willing to sell it?

r

[sipleybeck]

I am surprised at the comment about the OPL. Some time ago, on this forum, someone posted great praise for the way bass sounded through a TubeMP. I had no idea they were noisy.

I want something that will translate bass well. And I would use it on six-string just so the artist wouldn't have to try not to move. But in either case, very low noise would be a high priority.

[Richard Monroe]

The biggest problem with recording acoustic DI is not the DI box, it's the acoustic itself. Most piezo pickups sound like scheit even when plugged through the best DI boxes on the planet. If you're lucky enough to own a *great* A-E guitar, my advice would be to use the high-Z (instrument) input on any good preamp.
We were shocked that a scratch track I did DI actually made the cut for the current project, which is a fairly serious undertaking. It was recorded using a Taylor 710CE with a Fishman Prefix Plus going into a Joemeek twinQcs. The Prefix Plus has a piezo undersaddle pickup and a condenser microphone, and can output the 2 signals separately for separate processing. The piezo sounds like ass, and the mic is thin and lacks presence. However, the 2 signals blended (mixed) properly sounds actually rather good. The board's own Littledog, who is a tough audience, said "You did that DI? I'll have to email Fishman and congratulate them!" (forget about congratulating me.)
You can probably do good DI recording with a good cheap preamp, such as a DMP-3, if, and only if, you have a *great* guitar with a *great* pickup system. In conclusion, start by looking at the guitar, not the DI. If you do need a DI, I think you're better off just getting a good preamp with instrument inputs, because it has more uses than a DI box. Now I have an Avalon AD2022, but I prefer to use micriphones. If you must go DI with an acoustic, I can tell you cheap guitars will sound like ass.
Depending on the material, if it's a little bit rock oriented, ignore the piezo and put a magnetic pickup in the soundhole, such as Dean Markley (works for Leo Kottke). It won't sound exactley like an acoustic, or exactly like an electric, but it can sound *good*. And last, do not try to use a POD for an acoustic DI box, it sucks for that application- been there, rejected that. Good luck- Richie

[sipleybeck]

Ritchie,

Thanks for the advice. I appreciate your input.

My problem is that, at this point, I don’t want to replace the guitar or get another preamp (the 528E doesn’t have a Hi-z input). I hate to sound ignorant, and I’m not considering using one, but what is a POD?

I am building my Shangrila one piece of hardware at a time due to limitations in both experience and budget. It is not a professional undertaking – merely an avocation.

I own: an RE20 because I like the way it makes my own voice sound; a pair of Yorkville’s because they sound pretty darn good for $200; and a Symetrix 528E because I grew tired of spending eternity editing event lists attempting to simulate a compressor/expander, and because the vocal is, before all, the most important aspect of the song.

Having temporarily satisfied the most pressing concern, I turn my attention now to acoustic and bass guitars, and how to track them without introducing unwanted noise and distortion. Next, it will be drums.

I have narrowed the field to two: the Countryman and the Klark Teknik. They seem to be the most quiet, most professional of the bunch. They don’t have presets, but one must separate the wheat from the chaff. I am willing to learn sound engineering one knob at a time, if needs be, because who needs a bunch of unnecessary knobs.

I don’t have a background in electronics, so if someone will take the time to explain which of the two would be better matched with the 528E, I would appreciate it.


http://www.countryman.com/html_data_sheets/t85data.html

http://www.klarkteknik.com/pages/set_products.html

[Richard Monroe]

My point is- If you want a direct box, the countryman is $150. A DMP-3 is a dual mic preamp and a direct box for $50 more, and has many more studio uses than a Countryman. And if your acoustic doesn't sound good DI, at least you'll have a usable dual channel preamp. Good luck.-Richie

[fishtop_records]

The Countryman 85 has essentially no controls.
It is a classic "wire with gain" amplifier.
To my ears, it has no tone at all.

And it is built like a truck. You can run
large pickup trucks over it without causing
damage.

I believe the combination of its neutral tone
and reliability is why you see so many
in professional, high buck studios.

I've not heard anything bad about
the Klark, but I've got a Countryman.

[sipleybeck]

Ritchie:

I guess I’d better take a look at the DMP-3.


Another DI box has appeared on the horizon: the BSS ar-133.

http://www.bss.co.uk/products/access...techspecs.html


fishtop_records:

What instruments have you used your Countryman on, with favorable results?

[EVEykel]

Well, to be quite honest with you, the only reason I am selling my L.R. Baggs is because I bought an Avalon U5. Now that I have that, I really don't have any reason to keep the Baggs around anymore and I need about 100.00 more for the mic I want. So, let me know what you want to do. Thanks.

[sipleybeck]

EVEykel,

Haven’t made up my mind yet, but have narrowed the field to three: the BSS, the Klark, or the Countryman. I am not planning to use it “live”, which is where the Baggs would be more appropriate.

What did you pay for the U5? New or used? If new, from where?

[EVEykel]

I paid $530.00 with tax for the Avalon at Guitar Center. Its a bit steep, but considering that it is, pretty much, the best direct box you can buy for acoustic guitar, bass guitar, and keyboards...it's not bad. The L.R. Baggs is great live, and I actually enjoyed it in the studio as well because I had a little more time to tweak around with the EQ controls. The thing that originally sold me on the L.R. Baggs is the fact that I've seen one in so many equipment lists and because it has really become a standard item in that price range. Any good music store should let you plug any of these items in and try them. Also, you can order them online and return them if you don't like them. In your price range, any of the items that you've listed should work fine. But, if you never want to buy another direct box ever again, save up and get an Avalon. It was seriously the best decision I've made equipmentwise. Hope that's helpful.

[sipleybeck]

Sorry to have to bring this thread to life again, but for some reason I am unable to make a choice I am comfortable with.

The BSS ar-133 looks good but says nothing in the specs about phantom power.

The Klark Teknik LBB100 looks good and has a 150 ohm Output impedance which matches precisely the mic input specs on my 528E.

The Countryman Type 85 is touted as the industry standard and requires 48v @ 0.4 ma (while the LBB100 lists a power consumption of 10 mA, at 48v +/- 10%).

Also, both the ar-133 and LBB100 have an XLR input. Why would I need that if the 528E has an XLR line input as well?

I am in a quandary.

A little voice in my head tells me to get the Klark Teknik. But I don’t know where that voice is coming from, and I don’t think it has a background in sound engineering.

Does anybody have an educated opinion on the matter?