Mackie 1604-VLZ PRO vs. Soundcraft Spirit M12 and Soundcard opinions!!

[FattMusiek]

I will be upgrading over the summer and am trying to decide which mixer to buy; the Mackie 1604-VLZ PRO or the Soundcraft Spirit M12.

My current setup is:
Delta 44 soundcard/breakout box (4 I/O)
Behringer 1604A 4 XLR input mixer
Yorkville YSM1p monitors
2 Oktava MK012 condensers, 2 SM57s (I can only use one with my current setup), and a Beta 52. (I intend to get more mics, of course).

The purpose for the upgrade is to be able to fully mic a drum kit to my satisfaction and record bands playing live (all at once).

To be able to use all of the inputs for both of the mixers (both have 12 XLR inputs), I need a soundcard with at least 12 I/Os. What soundcard do YOU recommend? I am thinking a "Mark of the Unicorn (MOTU)" with lots of I/Os or an Aardvark audio interface. I don't want built in preamps on the audio interfaces, I want a seperate mixer.

So could I please get your opinions on the Mackie, the Spirit M12, the MOTU, and the Aardvark? (Please name the exact model number of the soundcard so I know exactly which one you're talking about). Which preamps are better on the above mixers? I need this kind of info.

A<b>NY HELP would be appreciated since this buy will determine my future in recording!!</b>

[tubedude]

Ahem.
I would go with the soundcraft simply because its just a better mixer.
If you are only recording and not using it for anything other than the direct-outs, might I point you in the direction of something like a Sytek 4 channel and a smaller Mackie or, or a pair of RNP's and a bunch of VTB-1's, something of that nature.
I suggest 2 RNP's and an M8 instead, or just 5 RNP's. Whatever.
The Soundcraft has a warmer less open sound but smoother than the Mackie. The Mackie actually can be the better pre sometimes, but I think the soundcraft wins, not counting the M8's better EQ and mix-bus.
Check into the MOTU, but not the cheaper or older ones. They new ones are more desirable.
I have a DElta 1010 which is just fine, but I think maybe the converters get on my nerves a little, the sound stacks up in the mix.
Buzzing. Sorry.

Peace.

[TexRoadkill]

Either mixer will work. The Soundcraft gets a bit of an edge for sound and the extra Spdif out is a cool feature.

If you plan on doing a lot of high bandwidth recording I would consider getting an HDR to do your tracking. Then you can dump the tracks to the computer for editing and mixing if you want.

[FattMusiek]

Thanks, both of you.

Tube - Each RNP goes for about 400-500, they include 2 XLR inputs each. I've heard a lot of good things about these preamps, but I don't knopw about buying 5 of them instead of a mixer. I am considering buying one of those good-looking fellers though. Also, can you provide me with a link to a MOTU you think is good? Remember, I need at least 12 I/Os...

Tex - I am actually starting to lean towards the Soundcraft. What is the extra Spdif out? LOL and I feel like a total <b>dumbass</b> for asking, but what is an HDR?? An extra hard-drive?? Haha.

[TexRoadkill]

lol, the SPDIF is a two channel digital output. An HDR is a Hard Disc Recorder like the Mackie HDR or the Alesis HD24. The advantage of a HDR is that you get 24 channels of analog i/o and rock solid recording. When you record a lot of channels at once on a computer you really start to tax the system. Not to mention all the processing time after you record a take and the danger of losing great takes because of crashes.

[FattMusiek]

My computer *shouldn't* have a problem handling so many tracks at once:

Pentium 4 2.4 Ghz processor
512 mb of ram
60 gig hd

[Pier Calacino]

Iv'e never owned or used a Mackie. I do have the M8, and I think for the money, it would be hard to beat.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Pier

[ambi]

You might wanna pick up a DMP3 or two. In a recent post about it, people are really raving how great it us. Apparantly better than the pre's in the mackie or soundcraft, and a hell of a lot cheaper than the rnp.

So you could get One or two RNP's, and maybe 2 DMP3's. Throw in a VTB-1 and maybe a Grace 101.... Mmmm.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by ambi
You might wanna pick up a DMP3 or two. In a recent post about it, people are really raving how great it us. Apparantly better than the pre's in the mackie or soundcraft, and a hell of a lot cheaper than the rnp.

So you could get One or two RNP's, and maybe 2 DMP3's. Throw in a VTB-1 and maybe a Grace 101.... Mmmm.

You can't really work effectively with a bunch of preamps and no mixer. Trying to create seperate headphone mixes for a band using just a soundcard would be a real bitch. Not to mention adding monitor effects.

[FattMusiek]

Yeah, I agree with Tex, one reason why I want a mixing console.

[Middleman]

The problem with multiple preamps, besides the obvious lack of routing capabilities, is that you have no summing buss for mixing. Although tubedude's suggestion is compelling, 8 channels of RNP in line with 8 channels of RNC in one box and really good summing. Hmmm......that would be very nice.

Hey FMR why don't you come up with a routing and summing shell that you could slap these modules into.

Harvey G, you know those guys. Pass it along.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by Middleman
The problem with multiple preamps, besides the obvious lack of routing capabilities, is that you have no summing buss for mixing. Although tubedude's suggestion is compelling, 8 channels of RNP in line with 8 channels of RNC in one box and really good summing. Hmmm......that would be very nice.

Hey FMR why don't you come up with a routing and summing shell that you could slap these modules into.

Harvey G, you know those guys. Pass it along.

Of course you would end up with over 8 wall warts and for the same price you could get a used 24CH Ghost.

[Middleman]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
Of course you would end up with over 8 wall warts and for the same price you could get a used 24CH Ghost.

That kills the whole idea...#@^%*$ wall warts. Good point though, I would rather have a Ghost.

[ambi]

Good points guys. I agree.
but in theory the quality of the preamps would be much higher than on say an m12 or 1604vlz pro.

[fishtop_records]

Originally posted by Middleman
The problem with multiple preamps, besides the obvious lack of routing capabilities, is that you have no summing buss for mixing. Although tubedude's suggestion is compelling, 8 channels of RNP in line with 8 channels of RNC in one box and really good summing.

The guys at FunkLogic are making vertical rack mounts for
FMR RNP/RNC, looks like API gear.

For DAW work, you don't need no stenking summing buss,
so bunches of RNPs would work. But I'd have to start
gearlusting over variety, adding a Great River here,
some John Hardy there...

Of course, right now I live with a Mackie 1604 and
a RNP/RNC pair.

[ambi]

Idealy i'd like an RNP, a DMP3, a grace 101, and whichever one of the Great River/John hardy that has the neve sound, not the clean one.

That would give me 6 good channels of preamplification, add in a couple of RNC's and maybe a Reverb unit and i'm good.