How can I get LOUD tracks using Compression and limiting without clipping?

[FattMusiek]

Can you please teach me the basics of CEP2's compression and limiter? My recordings are warm enough, but they lack the loudness I am looking for. Say for the kick drum track, I want it loud and powerful but I can't seem to make it happen.

Any help would be great!!

[BrettB]

getting a kick powerfull is a combination of EQ and compression.

You ain't probably much with it, but I use the Waves plugins... there winners compared to the one standard in CEP...

[FattMusiek]

Well then, how do I get plugins I have into CEP2??

[Houndog]

Yip FattM,
I'm struggling with this Q? too, how to boost the signal without clipping in CP.

Can it be done in the burner ?Or in CP?

adios,
Houndog

[dobro]

Fatt: what does the waveform for the kick drum look like? Lots of peaks and spikes, or not?

[F_cksia]

In CEP; effects; amplitude; normalize. Now you've got the max out of your mix without clipping. BUT if there's a peak at -20 and a peak at -3 in that mix, the whole mix will raise so that the -3 peak is now at his max (say 0), but the -20 just something like -17.
SO; prepare your mixes by making them as flat as you want; dynamic or compressed, subtle compressed or hard limited; experiment to hear how far you can go.
Take a look at Dream Theater mixes; they are like 1 big normalized line, but they sound very fine. Look at a orchestral recording; sometimes you'll see a quiet part which barely hits -10 and here and there you'll find the great climaxes who can come to 0 and so on. But this music NEEDS the dynamic, Dream Theater-metal DOESN'T (nothing to complain about DT or their mixes btw).

So the only answer here is (like SO often); it depends.
On taste, need for dynamics, style and so on.

But for most demos: try to get as loud as you can. As long as it sounds good; go on trying to get it more compressed and louder; you'll get more attention with it in the whole bunch of demos out there.

[FattMusiek]

The waveform is mostly clipping, I can't figure it out. Some parts of it stretch the entire thing. I don't hear clipping at all. ah! Can someone explain summing to me, slowly? :-/

THANKS!!

[F_cksia]

I think he meant with summing like; 'waveform 1 @ -1db + waveform 2 @ 1db = mixdown waveform @ 0.5' or something.

You know, when a lot of people talk at the same volume, the total volume is a lot more. So a lot of tracks played together produces a sound which has a lot more volume than one of the tracks solo'ed. And if they're all ALMOST clipping, the chance is great the final mix is TOTALLY clipping, you understand?

[FattMusiek]

Thanks, I understand what you mean. I'll leave room on some of the problem tracks. I'm using the playback meter now for reference.

[dobro]

Well, you can use the playback meter to show yourself how summing works. Solo just one track in your session and look at where the meter's hitting during playback. It might be something like -15 dB. Now add one track at a time and watch what the meter does. It'll keep climbing with each track you add, and if you add enough tracks, it'll clip eventually. Unless you turn down the master volume.

[chrisharris]

Not that anybody should care, but I've noticed that (on average) every trrack that I add requires me to lower the master fader by about a db.

One in the mixer now has 16 tracks and, shocker, the master fader is on about -16, lol.

The final mix, after I hit the "mixdown" button, will probably average out around -3db, with some peaks just under 0db.

AT THAT POINT, I use CEP's hard limiter on the whole mix...In the example, I'd use an "output" of 3db, but the "limit max amplitude to" box will be set to -.5 (notice the decimal point). All this means is that for most of the mix, it's gonna' turn it up 3 db to get it as close to zero as possible without clipping), but NONE of the mix will actually get closer than half a decibal from clipping. For the peaks that were already at, say, -.1 to start with, it'll "limit" their amplitude to -.5, along with everything else.

I love the limiter in CEP...as long as you don't overdo it...if you've got a mix that's just all over the place, for example...parts of it are at -20db, and other parts are already at zero, it's not a good idea to "Hard Limit" THAT mix by jacking up the volume by 20dbs, because you'll lose a ton of information in those peaks...it'll go ahead and boost them by 20db, then it'll just hack off everything that would otherwise be pushed above zero...your mix will look like a brick, and it'll probably sound like one too, lol.

(BTW - you can limit all the way to zero...nothing wrong with it...I just like having the extra half a db in case I want to add a reverb later, and also b/c "WINAMP" players don't like mixes that are totally maxed out at ZERO...it reads it like distortion.)

[chrisharris]

Knowing me and graphics, these two pics will probably look exactly the same...but the first one is supposed to show you a file right after mixdown, before HARD LIMITING.


BEFORE

[chrisharris]

...

I don't know if you can see it or not, but in the pic above, the "eyeball average" looks to be about -3db...I mean, about 80% of the file just looks like it's there....Soooo...here's the same file...after limiting with a 3db output, maxed out at -.5db.


.

[chrisharris]

Of course, it probably would have been infinitely more clear if I hadn't cut off the db meter in the pics, but there's no WAY I'm reposting, lol...you get the idea.

[FattMusiek]

Thank you SO much Chris! That gave me the confidence I needed...

"your mix will look like a brick, and it'll probably sound like one too, lol." LOL hahah.

I am always skeptical about breaching the white waveform lines, I thought THAT meant clipping lol...

http://members.cox.net/fattmusiek/CEPbefore.JPG (A pretty shitty mixing job but an idea of what my initial mixdowns look like. I limited it to -.5 but ended up with the infamous BRICK (it wasn't SO bad, don't really wanna post what it looks like though...), this goes back to the careless mixing I guess.

Anyways, thank you VERY much, your advice has helped tremendously!

[FattMusiek]

Oh, and pay no attention to my fruity waveform colors!!!!!!

[chrisharris]

Originally posted by FattMusiek
Oh, and pay no attention to my fruity waveform colors!!!!!!

Hey man, it's easy to see. I'm switching colors now, lol.

That wav doesn't look weird to me at all...lots of percussion, obviously, and if it's rock oriented, those are usually pretty compressed, so looks good.

BTW - I would like to see what the "brick" looks like. Some people say it doesn't matter...THE SOUND is all that matters...Well, yeah...but you can get a lot of clues about what's going on by looking at a .wav too.

Out of curiosity, when you did the limiting thing, how much of an output gain did you use? I'm sort of guessing, b/c I can't see the meters, but I'm thinking between 2-4 db would have been fine.

Anyway...carry on, lol.

[FattMusiek]

http://members.cox.net/fattmusiek/CEPafter.JPG

I call this piece "The Brick".

The limiting killed a lot of it, the mix sucked before I limited it too. Also, did you mean "Boost Input by" when you said "output gain"? Probably a dumb question but you could be referring to something else. I believe "Boost Input by" was at 6 dB.

[chrisharris]

Originally posted by FattMusiek
Also, did you mean "Boost Input by" when you said "output gain"?

Yeah, that's what I meant...and if you didn't change the number in that box from what it defaults to, then it was probably on "7," which appears to be a bit much for that mix. Don't get me wrong, I've seen a lot of commercial mixes that looked exactly like yours, or even more bricklike, but a lot of it has to do with how even and hot you're able to mix down to begin with.

If I were you, I'd backtrack a little bit, and change the "Boost Input By" number to 2 or 3, judging from the looks of that first file. You just don't need that much...

Then, post it in the mp3 clinic so everybody can tell you how overlimited and compressed it sounds

[FattMusiek]

I'll post the new diddy I'm working on after my ears recover somewhat, I really hate that song I showed ya before :-/.

Also, was it you who did the song on the shuttle crash earlier this year? If so, I loved it, girlfriend and mom did too.

[chrisharris]

Originally posted by FattMusiek
Also, was it you who did the song on the shuttle crash earlier this year?

LOL...yeah, that'd be me. I guess you should probably know how bad somebody's recordings suck before you start taking advice from them, right?

Here's my garbage pail:
www.nowhereradio.com/honestmango/singles

(the tune I posted a pic of is "Time To Leave," the "wet" version, lmao...it actually has drums and stuff )

(thanks for the compliment, btw)

[Deen]

I don't know if this helps but here goes.
Try recording all tracks a couple of db's lower
than 0 db, by lets say at -6 to -9 db. I have a feeling
you record too hot tracks. I always leave room for effects processing like filters and compression, They always tend
to clip things. So I start with a not so loud wave. The
drawback to this is amplifying the noise after
the effects processing, but doing this gives you
a more controllable signal to work with.

Oh and I always lower the master when the tracks add up.
As long as it sounds right to your ears, who cares what
level you set them to. I think sometimes, even mildly clipped
waves sound punchier, better, louder than waves not clipped.
Waves sound better when driven a bit. Just don't overdo it.
As long as the clipping is seen and not heared, if it sounds
better and has more balls who cares?

[FattMusiek]

Chris - Even your dry mix sounds excellent, "ah lok it aloht." (Dumb and Dumber)

Deen - Lowering the master volume helps greatly. My initial tracks weren't recording that hot either, I leave a bit of room. Thanks for your voice.