Jagular and Crawdad Co-write a Tune

[crawdad]

This is a song started by Jagular which we finished writing together via internet and a bunch of e-mails. Really fun, and Jag is a damned smart writer as well as a great guy to work with. This particular recording was done by me. There are things I like about it and things I would like to improve, but I'm not sure I can. Anyway, I love the song. Its called:

Where The River Flows

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/.../singles.shtml

As usual, any and all comments welcomed!

[Kramer]

Pitch it to Diamond Rio!They could use a hit!

The instrumentation screams Diamond Rio.Ok,enough about Diamond Rio.LOL.This is a well written song.......the vocal harmony is as sweet as honey on the word "away" 2:30......excellent vocals all the way through and the melody is great....strong hook in the chorus.

Excellent playing and choice of instrumentation.(diamond rio )

You two seem to make a dynamic duo with your songwriting.Throw Chrisharris into the mix and you have a Terrific Trio.LMAO!

All you great songwriters on the board make me wanna get off my can and get serious about songwriting again.Thanks.

P.S. The storyline of this song evokes a strong mental picture.....a mental video.

[groucho]

As usual, high quality stuff. I really admire when writers can be openly emotional without being shmaltzy - it's really hard to pull off in my opinion - and this nails it. Great writing, great singing as always, etc.

I did notice an odd kind of plosive-like sound on the first line (the 'f' sound on "fog"). It appears (much less noticably) in a couple other 'f' sounds as well.

That's about all I can come up with. Great tune.

Chris

[Gidge]

great writing as usual from both of you guys.....

Ill make suggestions after a few hours sleep.....



MIKE



Kramer, if you wanna co-write, gimme a shout.....

[SLuiCe]

You know me...I dig any song about a river. Throw in some stuff about fishing and well...

Sweet production! Good blend and balance. The lead vocal seems to me like it could use a little boost around 3-400 and again around 10-20K for some air. Maybe it's just me but the vocal doesn't seem to be in the same sonic place as the rest. It's sitting very nicely, and beautifully sung and compressed. Preference would be a little more low and a little more high. Or just less mids. I almost suggested the same for Chris's recent tune, but I think it was the AT that was causing what I was hearing. Or maybe it was just imagination. But I don't know the first thing about producing "country" so it's all just babble, really.

I love the string work too. Even the panned and louder hi hats work for me in this.

Now I want to take the day off and do some fly fishing. Oh, I already wanted to do that anyway I guess. But this makes it worse!


Great job you guys. VERY VERY pro sounding!

[skids]

This is very high quality from what I can tell. The songwriting was very well thought out. Instrumentation, vocals and harmonies all great.

I don't really feel qualified to comment on the mix, although I would say SLuiCe was on to something with mids on the vocals. But he would know more than me and I am not listening on good equipment.

Very nice work....I think I'll listen again.

[scottboyher]

Great song and great recording. I agree with Sluice that the leade vocals could use a little boost in the highs.


Great writing! You need to get a staff writer job!

Great job to the both of ya!

[chrisharris]

Whoa...cool.

Lemme' do the stream of conciousness thing first.

Recording: There's something funky in the first line "Into the Fog"...almost sounds like distortion. It was weird enough for me to write it down before I read that Groucho heard the same thing. It would be a normal sound on my vocal track, but I expect better from you, Al...lol. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't the first freakin' line in the song.

The acoustics sound great...ringing, but without that huge compression sound that I rely so heavily upon. Okay, all of the instruments...and the synth bed stuff just works. Arrangement kicks ass.

Performance: - Well, it's pro. Not a "flaw" in it; however, my honest opinion is that you should recut a couple of lines to alter the phrasing of the verses some. I'm hearing (right or wrong) too much of you going UP at the end of lines. I didn't sit here and count, lmao, but it just hits my ears that way. The one that really kind of stuck out to me was "how life's led us to this place,"...man, because of where it is in the song, and because of the strong line that follows it, you could almost SPEAK that particular line, but at least go down for effect to set up the next line.

Songwriting - This is the winner, in my opinion. You got to the chorus quickly, which was great. I can't seem to force myself to do that in under 12 lines, lol. Here, it didn't sound rushed at all...the background was set.

Two sorta' negatives - and neither one is "wrong." The line..."how my love might end in vain/vein/vane" (I can never keep those straight)... I can't articulate it, but something about that line just doesn't feel right. It rhymes, and it's totally appropriate in the context, but it's almost redundant. This is one of those "Chris" things that makes me change a perfect line sometimes because it just doesn't "feel" right. I don't know if it's even worth mentioning, but...just in case either of you had similar thoughts about the line...I wanted to let you know that.
I dunno'...I'd almost like it to be closer to "but nothing ventured, nothing gained," except that it sounds trite as hell now that I've written it down, lol.

The other thing is that the bridge feels a little too long for it's purpose. I think you could hack out the 2nd and 3rd line, just keeping the first and the last (once you make them rhyme) and it'd be perfect.

Okay, all that said, the only thing that really needs to be fixed, in my opinion, is the distortion on the vocal at the beginning. I think I'm just trying to but in on a cool song, lmao.

NICE WORK!!!

[chrisharris]

Ignore the B.S. I wrote about the bridge being too long. It's perfect, lol.

[twist]

Really nice job guys! So is the performance all Crawdad? Was the colab for the writing only? Did you guys exchange wav files, or sing parts over the phone, or what?


Twist

[Jagular]

Originally posted by twist
Really nice job guys! So is the performance all Crawdad? Was the colab for the writing only? Did you guys exchange wav files, or sing parts over the phone, or what?


Twist

Well that's the next step. Crawdad is going to play his instruments over the phone and I'm going to track that on my gear and it should come out sounding something similar to my recordings (but better played)

But seriously, I have to add a little to what Crawdad said. I had this song "completed" (posted the scratch tracks here). Crawdad had some ideas for the direction of the song way different from where I had it, so we started a co-write (term used loosely ). It took me about 3 seconds (maybe less ) to think it was a good idea, because I can tell from his stuff he is a very good writer.

He gutted it much like taking the insides of a house all apart and remodeling, using my initial idea and totally expanding upon it. The only original part of my "completed" song remaining is basically the very beginning and very end. The insides were remodeled. He really set up the whole alternative story line and we bantered back and forth on the best way to say some things. I think it turned out damn good. I just have to say I thought my original version was an OK song...this process turned our version into a very good song IMVHO. I'm not saying I didn't contribute to the process...just that I would have never gotten it to this point by myself. Not even close.

It was truly a pleasure to collab with Crawdad on this. I already could tell he was a good writer & musician before this. Now I know he is a great guy & human being as well. I would guess that I benefitted from this excercise more than he did. I had a lot to learn before this. I still do, but now quite a lot less. I guess that means he's a pretty good teacher too . I was excited before this happened to start getting into writing again (not that I was ever heavily into it in the first place). Now I am doubly excited about it now that I've seen something that I had a part in turn out this good. This is definitely the best song I've had a part in writing. Hopefully it will just keep getting better and better . (hope it doesn't sound like bragging...I'm just very happy with this song)

I'll will be recording a version of this as well. The benefit of Crawdad recording it first is I can "cop the demo" so to speak . He seems to do things musically so effortlessly. I will shamelessly steal any arrangngemt ideas from his version . Expect to hear this version in...oh...2005? ... I need to put my new computer together (hopefully by next weekend) and start the tedious task (for me) of recording. I move very slowly at this stuff.

Thanks for all the comments so far (song-wise) and thanks to Crawdad...twas a bunch of fun!!!

Oh my...I think I rambled on again...I really must see someone about that .

[Jagular]

Oh I do have to include the one negative to this experience

When he told me he was wearing a black cape and insisted that I call him "Master" and he kept referring to me as "My Young Apprentice"....that kind of freaked me out a little. Other than that...all was golden

[crawdad]

Kramer--I LOVE Diamond Rio! I'm really glad you dug the song, cause we put a ton of work into it!

Groucho--yeah, the vocal has some sonic problems. I have more work to do there. Like SluiCe said, its not blending right with the track. When I hear the track sans vocals, it sounds pretty decent, but I'm going through some kind of weird problems capturing my voice. Don't know if its mic or preamp or me or what. Anyway I'm gonna give it another shot here soon.

SluiCe--see above. Also, this is the V67. i don't think its meant for me or I am not using it properly. Anyway, fishing sounds like a good idea right about now--GO!

Gidge--fire any comments that strike if if you listen again! Now sleep!

Skids-thanks for listening and--yes--SluiCe IS on to something. I knew, but I wanted to put it up anyway--impatient me. Too many ideas and not enough time...

scottboyher--Yeah, I'm gonna retrack the lead. One problem I'm having is I need a good de-esser. Sibilant voice+sibilant LD condenser=SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

ChrisHarris--Loved all your comments! Wish you could come up here and produce my singing for me. Its that old problem--engineer, producer, musician, vocalist, writer. Hard to stay objective unless you're Sybil, ya know. One guy producing is bound to miss out on some alternate ideas.

Jagular--I may have gutted some lyrics, but the melody and form is all yours. I love this melody by the way. Believe me, I got as much out of this as you did. One of my goals this year was to get back into songwriting big time. It always helps to have another person to write with and share ideas with. Every person has a unique way of following the thread of an idea and I learned a lot from you too. Now, get that computer together and get that tune going!

I'd also like to add that this man, Jagular, is a great soul and a lot of fun to work with. He's too modest--he's a talented writer and musician too!


Now, I gotta figure out how to capture the right vocal....I'll post it when I get it.

[A1A2]

Nice writting! arranging wise, it's great, but I am not too into the melodies tho. The song sounds very well recorded, but the gitars sound like it's missing some lows, were they DIed? I dunnno, maybe they work with the song, but I am hoping to hear a little more low end of the whole mix.

The stereo image is wide, almost too wide, some kind of padding might fill this mix up a bit. But, hey, what do I know. This is good!

well done

Al

[crawdad]

I worked on the vocal today. If anybody returns, see if you like this any better

Its--River3

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/.../singles.shtml

[SLuiCe]

I completely dig the lyrics in the first verse. There's better forums in which to tell you how much I agree with that verse, and why I love to fish rivers and streams.

It's better, but to be honest I don't think that mic is right for you. It's just a little opinion, of course. I think this mic might have its place, just not necessarily in this warm song. And it doesn't sound like EQ would get it to where I'm hearing it. Unless you've cut a lot of lows already and they just need to be put back in place a little. I don't know. Again, I'm not really experienced with a lot of pro songs in this style. Just a pothead's opinion.

Beaufitul song though. I went back and listened to The Quiet One and Supposed to Do again. I really really like Supposed...! The guitars in the beginning have great feel, and the vocal delivery is very convincing. There's passion there..

[rpe]

Very, very nice. Vocals remind me of an Americanized Roger Whittaker, great voice.

rpe

[Lt. Bob]

As usual..a great performance by Al.
And a nice tune by Jagular.

I had just ordered a V93 about ten minutes ago so I could get vocals like Al's and then I listened to this and said "That's not what I was looking for"....so I was glad to read that you used the V63. lol

Great harmonies and a particularly good acoustic sound.........I have no mix complaints at all....well, the drums could come up just a little but otherwise it makes me happy.

Glad to see you posting something Al.......so when are we gonna write some tunes?

I guess I need to give you a call.

[chrisharris]

Originally posted by crawdad
I worked on the vocal today. If anybody returns, see if you like this any better

Okay, I just spent a lot of time typing about how incredibly similar this vocal take sounded to the one I heard this morning...lol...I was listening to the wrong file, so I'll leave out the comments about how the "F" in "Fog" is still screwed up, lmao.

"How my love would end in vain"... for some reason, that fixes it for me. I have absolutely no idea why...maybe it's the way you sang it.

lol...I see you actually sang the other line ("How life's led us to this place") louder. heheee.. artistic differences make the world go around

The vocal overall sounds a lot better...it's not just the lack of distortion, it's an overall clarity w/o harshness. The first one wasn't bad at all, btw.

It's a textbook story tune... Kind of a tear-jerker, but with hope (see, I usually leave out that "hopeful" part, lmao)...all wrapped in melodic imagery. The effort shows; this wasn't written in :10 minutes.

I still want you to change up the melody of the verses some, but sheesh, I'm really having to get picky to find something to bitch about.

[djc]

Great song. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Crawdad, your voice is wonderful. It's different than anything else I've heard before, and has great character. Keep up the good work.

[Jagular]

Originally posted by crawdad
Kramer--I LOVE Diamond Rio! I'm really glad you dug the song, cause we put a ton of work into it!

Yeah....me too...hmmm....Diamond Rio...hmmm....that gives me some ideas on how I might arrange this come the time .

Oh...now first listen through...I see where the Diamond Rio references are coming from. I little bit of mando in there...nice...

Damn dude...you need to move down my me so you can play all the instruments for me .

Nice job recording Al. Sounds good to me on the puter speakers. I'll have to listen to it a bunch more times to find any cracks.

Man...I can't wait to sing my teeth into this. Maybe raise it 2 or 3 steps and see if I can find that blistering high Diamond Rio high harmony somewhere.

My wife is crying at it again...that's a good sign .

Nice work man. It will be fun to cop this performance

[boydrj]

Strange because the only place I ever listen to country is on this BBS, and you guys are so great I really find myself enjoying it.

This is a great tune and, especially not being written in the same room, sounds like it couldv'e been. Very nice recording, and the vocals are just so damn great!

Can't think of any mixing advice. I just really enjoy this tune!

Keep up the collaborating!

[GT]

Just wonderfull!!

You guys should be making money with music this good. REALLY!!

Great work!!

GT

[crawdad]

SluiCe, Lt. Bob, ChrisHarris--I think I'm gonna have to break down and buy a Neumann U87 or something. There was a time I would have been plenty happy with this vocal sound, but I'm not anymore. I've been listening to tons of "pro" vocals, and they are getting something I want but can't seem to achieve. Full bottom but not boomy, solid middle but not boxy, clean upper midrange and air with no sizzle or sibilance. I think it could partially be my voice, which is getting shot from months of singing 6 nights a week, drinking and smoking, age, etc. (Just to name a few excuses, LOL!) I've tried the MXL V67, V93, the AT 4033 and even my old SM57. I'm not getting what I want and its driving me nuts! I gotta rethink all this. If i can't get it with all the things I've tried, I don't know what else to do.

Anyway, thanks for listening and for the encouragement and nice comments. Thanks also to A1A2, rpe, djc, GT, boydrj, for checking this out. I always grin, boydrj, when somebody who doesn't listen to country likes something like that on the BBS. Hey, its all good. This place has broadened my horizons too!

And Jagular, I'm expecting good things from your demo! Next song, we gotta make the wife laugh instead of cry, though!

[mixmkr]

Crawdad...you might think about a better preamp VS a different micm and don't waste your money on a U87. But, I know what you are saying... It is hard to get a good sound on yourself, because how do you tweak the sound as you are singing..eh? But once you find 'the setup'....! The song, performance was all pretty nice. The vocal sound was kinda iffy in comparision to the other departments we all rag on about around here. Seemed to have the freq. response of a cassette without the hiss. I get some great vocals (I think??!!) with a EV RE20. Not an expensive mic. There are also a slew of Sennheiser stuff (like a 441 maybe?)around the 3-400 range (used, eh?). You tried a 57...maybe the 58 might work a tad better (being supposedly the same mic...ha!)
I'd think something like a Grace preamp with a nuetral sound would be what you might want (or my first choice on your voice). Maybe record a couple of tracks at the same time (set up a couple different mics), and that might help to pinpoint what one mic is REALLY doing in comparision to the other mics since all the different mics would record the same performance. Rather than guessing ..."is this mic making me sound mid rangy??" you could come up with saying..."this mic makes me sound better because...." get the drift? Then you might end up saying...I need a mic that "crispier" than a 4033... or something that gives me more warmth with the proximity effect... I think a comparision test at this stage might be more useful than just trying things at random. Also, don't forget the "magic" that some of the little black boxes like the Urie 1176 and the LA2A do to vocal tracks. Not cheap anymore these days, but probably on more "pro" vocal tracks than realized. They're pretty musical sounding little compressors. However, I think you're hitting "that wall' where you "know" the pro sound, but want to get it at home too. If it was that easy, things might be a lot different for the studios...eh?