Copyrights...

[Ashura]

sup...im posting this in 2 threads 'cause im kinda stuck...i did a collab with a rapper on one of my tracks, he's lookin to get his name out to a few labels and he wanted a final mix of our joint. some of the people he's worked with have been signed to ruff ryders, so this could be big. the thing is, i havent come to the copyright point yet, my plan was to finish up all my tracks then copyright them in one set. is there a quick and easy, legal, way to go about copyrighting just one song? i know there's the poor man's copyright (mailing it to yourself), but will that stand in court? i'm just not too enthusiastic about getting my stuff heard by too many people before i can claim it as my own, ive heard more than enough storiez bout the shadiness of the game...

[Layla Nahar]

Hi Ashura,

I would say 'penny wise, pound foolish' - take the plunge & copyright the one song you'll be sending out.

[Jagular]

I’m with Layla. It will cost you $30 and postage. The poor man’s copyright will not necessarily stand up in court and even if it does, the damages you receive from an infringement case are limited if the copyright has not been registered. Just do it. Especially if there is the possibility of a wide audience. $30 is a pretty cheap insurance policy on losing potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars IMHO.

G’luck

[Ashura]

I guess it would be better to be safe than sorry...would it be possible to re-copyright something? that is, lets say for now I just send in some rough samples of the beats I'm creating. after my project is done, I would like to copyright everything in its entirety, the completed, finalized song...would I be able to copyright at that point, even though some of the music was previously copyrighted?

[Jagular]

I'm not sure if I'm saying this right so someone can correct me if I’m wrong. A copyrighted piece should contain at a minimum a melody. If you are copyrighting a song, it should be at least a melody and lyrics. I think you can copyright just lyrics as well. However you can’t copyright changes or beats by themselves. Many songs have the same changes or beats as other songs. IMHO it is best to have a coherent work together that represents the song well for the best protection (that could just be my own little hang up). I usually send scratch tracks of a project (guitar & vocal) which give a good idea of the song structure, melody & lyrics before I post a song or play it in public (call me paranoid).

Hope that answered your question?

[Ashura]

hey jagular...so tell me what you think about this. i have a pretty rough version of a few of my songs, majority of them with one form or another of lyrics. if i package all those together and send them in, you think that would suffice? and you mentioned about not being able to copyright beats...i guess to me, a 'beat' is an instrumental, complete with everything except the vocals. how would you go about copyrighting an instrumental, or is this considered different from a beat?

[Jagular]

Originally posted by Ashura
hey jagular...so tell me what you think about this. i have a pretty rough version of a few of my songs, majority of them with one form or another of lyrics. if i package all those together and send them in, you think that would suffice? and you mentioned about not being able to copyright beats...i guess to me, a 'beat' is an instrumental, complete with everything except the vocals. how would you go about copyrighting an instrumental, or is this considered different from a beat?

I would guess your rough versions are adequate as long as they contain the lyrics and the melody. I think if you make minor changes to lyrics or melody in the songs you can send an updated copyright form in. I’ve never done this so I’m not 100% sure. Maybe someone else has a little more knowledge on that. If you are talking about copyright of an instrumental work, that would work just fine. Obviously the more distinct the melody is within the instrumental work the more “clear” the copyright of it would be in case it ever went to court. Of course I’m conjecturing on this so again, maybe someone else has better idea. Again, if you added lyrics later, I believe you could send in another copyright form to cover that.

Hope this helps – hopefully some others will chime in too as I’m kind of flying by the seat of my pants here .

[Peter D]

I agree with Jagular, a basic lead sheet (melody) and/or lyrics is all you need for the copyright. If you have lyrics you want to copyright alone, you use Form TX, usually used for literary works.

I'm afraid I'm woefully ignorant on the copyright law re registering rhythms and/or loops, so can't help in that respect. But, the most imporant thing is to go through the registration process to protect yourself to the fullest extent. I don't think many people grasp the fact that you can get a monetary award for copyright infringement for songs that are not hits or big money generators. But to recover those statutory damages you must pay the registration fee and do the paper work. Good luck with your material!

[Ashura]

thanx for the advice, i will definitely try to get this stuff done, i dont want to take any chances with all the hard work...thanx!

[bdbdbucksKID]

You may not want to hear this...but if you intend to circulate your material anytime soon...even if you submit to copyright today, it will take 4-5 months to process. I am in DC and I am so close to the copyright I could walk there, as far as time is concerned with copyright...it won't be quick, but it'll be easy.
Look for your certificate in your mailbox six months from now.
Self-Copyrighting is an idea but there no guarantee that it will hold water. You can thank modern technology for that.

[Peter D]

I apologize; I neglected to include in my post that all copyright applications should be mailed Certified Mail, Return Receipt Requested. The date the Copyright Office receives your application is the date of filing and can be evidenced by your return receipt until you receive your conformed, stamped application back. Prior to 9/11 six months was about an average turnaround time. Clerks now tell me it could be as long as 10 months, but all of mine have made it back under the six month time period to date.

[bdbdbuck]

Originally posted by bdbdbucksKID
You may not want to hear this...but if you intend to circulate your material anytime soon...even if you submit to copyright today, it will take 4-5 months to process. I am in DC and I am so close to the copyright I could walk there, as far as time is concerned with copyright...it won't be quick, but it'll be easy.
Look for your certificate in your mailbox six months from now.
Self-Copyrighting is an idea but there no guarantee that it will hold water. You can thank modern technology for that.

OK....your EVENTUAL copyright is from the date the copyright office RECEIVES your material.....they will mail you a receipt which is dated.....then later, you get your certificate. That's how it used to be done anyway, I take mine in person and haven't mailed one in over 20 years.....they're not likely to have changed that.

Ashura,
I didn't see in your post that you had actually written the song from the collab project. If so, you're good to go. If not, you can't copyright your tracks to someone else's song.....just to clarify.



bd

[Hardcore]

7 months for me. I copyrighted a version of a tune cuz I was putting it on a comp cd. I'm including that on my cd which I am copyrighting as a collection. A new version of that song will then be copyrighted. I need to put a description of what changed on the song. Things like i retracked the guitar, vox. Different song structure or remix, etc.

[bdbdbuck]

Hardcore,
If you just change the title you won't be tied to that explaination stuff. Maybe just put ver.2 or something. Explainations can become technicallities, what if you miss something or describe it wrong? Besides, the original copyright will still be intact that way....you paid for it.


bd

[mocharock]

There are so many rumors on this subject. I have not heard of the poor man's copywrite in many years now. That brings back a few memories actually.

I have heard that when you are submitting the information to be copywritten that you can send a cd with multiple tracks on it. Is that true?

Also what about some of those timeless songs that the copywrite has long expired i.e. those old celtic songs that are thousands of years old. Who gets the royalities on those?

[Jagular]

Originally posted by mocharock
There are so many rumors on this subject. I have not heard of the poor man's copywrite in many years now. That brings back a few memories actually.

I have heard that when you are submitting the information to be copywritten that you can send a cd with multiple tracks on it. Is that true?

Yes. It's called a compilation or collection of works. I just did that with two songs because I had them ready to go. You have to label it as a compilation on the form as well.

Originally posted by mocharock
Also what about some of those timeless songs that the copywrite has long expired i.e. those old celtic songs that are thousands of years old. Who gets the royalities on those?

I don't think any royalties are collected on these since they are public domain. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Jagular]

Crap...

Quck post to get past 666

[Scottgman]

Originally posted by mocharock
There are so many rumors on this subject. I have not heard of the poor man's copywrite in many years now. That brings back a few memories actually.

I read about this stuff pretty intensively a couple years ago. I was having a debate with one of my band-mates because one of our songs was included on a compilation CD that was going to be aggressively marketed. Everything I read said that the poor man's copyright would not stand-up in court and is basically an urban legend (sorry, I don't remember any references).

Anyway, my band-mate was explaining that an "entertainment" lawyer told him that as soon as you penned your work it was "copyrighted" therefore, we didn't need to worry about registering with the copyright office (I still chuckle about that). I tried to explain-- to no avail-- that the lawyer was probably speaking in terms of legal theory or the "true" meaning of copyright. If you consider the purest meaning of the word "copyright" then your work technically IS "copyrighted" as soon as your pen it (according to Merriam-Webster online: Copyright- the exclusive legal right to reproduce, publish, and sell the matter and form [as of a literary, musical, or artistic work]).

But the problem is how do you prove that it was written on or before a specific date? The poor man's copyright is supposed to solve this problem-- but then how do you prove that the original envelope you mailed to yourself has never been opened and resealed? (hint: you can't!)

I don't know much about law but I know a lot about science... and science and law are very similar in one respect: you can't make claims without evidence. The only way to have evidence that you created this work is to register with the copyright office... period. Just properly copyright your work and this won't be an issue. As other people have already mentioned, a melody and lyrics is all you need to worry about, you do not have to have a completed mixed/mastered song on CD to obtain a copyright.

Cheers!

[DonF]

Originally posted by Scottgman
...the poor man's copyright would not stand-up in court and is basically an urban legend (sorry, I don't remember any references).

The "poor man's copyright" has not been necessary in the United States since 1978, when the U.S. joined the Berne Copyright Convention. One of the requirements of Berne is that intellectual property is protected from the moment of creation, whether registered or not.

If your work isn't registered, you are still protected (provided you can prove authorship). But you can only collect actual damages for infringement -- that is, the amount you would have made if the infringing party had properly paid you for your work. If the work is registered, you can collect punitive damages as well.

Anyway, my band-mate was explaining that an "entertainment" lawyer told him that as soon as you penned your work it was "copyrighted" therefore, we didn't need to worry about registering with the copyright office (I still chuckle about that).... But the problem is how do you prove that it was written on or before a specific date? ... The only way to have evidence that you created this work is to register with the copyright office

Not the only way, but certainly the best way.

Here's a link for further reading on copyright law.

[bdbdbuck]

Awesome link dude, THANKS.
In the future, this link along with the official website of the copyright office should have just about any answer anyone could possibly be looking for. Excellent reference.


bd

[Buffalo Bob]

If you are pitching songs to other people, it's also important to register the song with your PRO. B.M.I. provides this service - not sure about ASCAP.
Unless you have one particularly saleable (coverable) song, I'd just do a multiple copyright on them all, and save my money for the damned lawyers! You're going to need it.

[Brad]

Re: the "updating" of copyright registrations -

You can't really "update" a copyright - what you do is register it again. On PA copyright forms, there is a place that asks if you have ever registered the song before, and what has changed with the new registration.

So, if you registered a rough version, and then added a verse (or something changed) you re-register the new (final) version. It costs another $30. The original record of your rough version stays the same - that is what I mean by "you can't really update a copyright" - you basically amend or append it.

Once the LOC has processed the new copyright registration, providing you have done everything right, each registration will cross reference the other.