ALL cable sucks. ALL of it. So do all of the Preamps and Compressors.

[Light]

I was reading a post over on Rec Pit, and I finally realized just what exactly it is about Monster cable's marketing that gets me so upset. They represent their cable as having properties which are impossible. They do everything they can to make you believe you must have their cable, or you will never be able to get a good mix. This is demonstrable untrue. With all of these boxes, they try and make you think that, if you just get that one more box, you will sound "pro."

The truth of the matter is, you will get 100X the return out of spending time with the gear you have than by buying more gear. It truly does not matter which cable, or preamp, or EQ, or format, or whatever, you are using. If you haven't spent the time to learn the basic techniques of audio, the gear does not matter. Instead of shopping for the newest and coolest piece of gear, spend time in your studio. You do not need to be recording new projects, either. Remix something you have already done, see if you can make it better. Or do a production analysis of a great album. Write down everything you hear in a track, figure out everything you can about an record. Even if you just spend time listening to CDs you like, learning them better, it will improve your skills.

Does Mogami sound better than other cable? I sure think so. Does it make my mixes any better? Not much. Is cable (or any other piece of gear) EVER the determining factor for the mixes of anyone on this forum (myself included)? No. Never. The gear is tertiary to the skills, which are secondary to the ears. If you have an afternoon to spend, and you are thinking about buying some gear. Stop. Go into the studio, and listen to something, or remix something. This will go further than any piece of gear. The important thing is NOT the gear, but the work.

Set a goal for your self. Set a number of hours you have to work in your studio before you buy anymore gear. Choose to spend 1000 hours in your studio in the next year, or 2000, or 3000, or 500. WORK. The difference between "professional" product and "amateur" product is the experience, not the gear, and it really chaps my ass (so to speak) to hear companies market their gear by saying "You will sound the way you want to by using X mic pre" or "Y compressor." It just is NOT true. And Z cable is not going to make any noticeable difference, in the end.

Remember this, you do not "get" a good mix. You MAKE a good mix. If your work is great, YOU are responsible. If your work sucks, YOU are responsible. The gear gets none of the credit, nor the blame. You don't need more gear, you need to do more WORK.

Gandhi said, "Cowards can never be moral." What he meant is, if you are not willing to take responsibility for your actions, you will be forever afraid of acting. He was willing to go to prison for his actions, even to die. All I am saying is you that we need to stop blaming our gear, and take responsibility for our work. Accept the consequences of our work, and remember that one of the consequences is the increase of our skills. Whatever you do today may or may not suck, but it WILL have added to your skills.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[littledog]

that makes way too much sense, light. someone is sure to jump all over your ass...

[Beltrom]

You have seen the light (sorry, couldn't resist)! I do agree with you, and you should buy gear with this in mind. Principally the same thing applies to music gear. If the goal is to "make it" you might try a strategy that you won't put more money into music than you get out of it. Then whatever happens in the future you won't really have a loss.

But then there's the fun factor. This is just a hobby for me, I like spending money on it. I wouldn't even want a career as an artist or music engineer if they threw it at me. So the money I put into the studio or instruments is basically my toy money. Equivalent to other guys sports cars or golf clubs. And if I can afford a Ferrari I want to buy the damn thing - even if I can't drive like an indycar-driver. Now of course if I were to buy this Ferrari for for my family I would have to convince myself and my loved one that this was just the right car for a family with two kids. I'd have to lie to both myself and her, and I would be very pleased if Ferrari helped me come up with the lies. Do you get my point?

Sometimes when we blame the gear we just do it as an excuse to buy nicer toys - and then we can have fun for a while again...

I'm not totally shure which way i would go if I had a choice of beeing equipped with world class engineering skills and only have a portastudio, or have a world class studio with my current level of skills. But I'm pretty much convinced that the fourtracker me would kick the other me's ass...

[Blue Bear Sound]

I agree 100%, Light.......

The only thing I would add is that better gear/cable/whatever generally makes your recording job easier...

ie - sure, a pro can get good results out of a PortaStudio (because of their experience), but not as easily compared to doing the same thing in a properly-equipped studio!

[dobro]

Yeah, I agree with you Light, but having bought some decent gear, I'm glad I did, because all the time I'm spending in my studio is spent with decent gear, not cheap gear. It's more fun working with decent gear than cheap gear. It sounds better too.

What you say about the relative value of skill and gear is true. What I'm saying about better gear being more enjoyable to work with and having a better sound is also true.

[Jeff_D]

Originally posted by Light

The gear is tertiary to the skills, which are secondary to the ears.

Right on

-jeff

[toadies]

so your saying i could get a great mix by experience using a mackie board then to being unexperience using a SSL board.

or are you saying doesn't matter experience or not, you can get great mix by using crappy board just as if you us a SSL board.

[Neil Ogilvie]

When I first joined this board I remember reading in a thread someone talking about some guy who used to be real big on this forum, but not now (I'm not sure - it was a long time ago!). Anyway, where was I?

Oh yes, he had done some recording with only a computer microphone and a built in soundcard and computer speakers just to prove this point. The reply I read said that it was better than anything he'd ever done before, just because he knew hwat he was doing.

I'd interested to hear these recordings if anyone knows of them.

But this also brings about the argument - Is a Mackie really better than a Behringer?

It seems that it depends who's using it really

Good thread.

[c7sus]

For me it's been kindofa circular thing.

I've always bought decent gear. There's little point in anything else. My time is as valuable as the gear. Even moreso. Dicking around with dodgy gear of any kind sucks.

I'm going for kindofa Tony Rice/Peter Rowan tone to my recording. Not that I'll ever play like those guys, but I like Bill Wolf's recording's of Rice especially. I know Rice favors SD condensors. Rowan has done some work with Jerry Douglas called "Yonder" that was recorded with vintage Neumanns direct to disc in other musicians and friends living rooms. The music is haunting and beautifully captured. I've only recently begun to appreciate the characteristics of "room" with regard to recording. It's been a long and winding road so far. I really envy you guys that get to do this for a living. I'm sure there are a lotta fucked up days like anything else, but how cool to capture great performances and get paid for it!

Condensors and HD recording brought out a lot more of my limitations than I had hoped for, compared to my experiences with a Portastudio and dynamic mics 20 years ago.

Today I have so much more information at my fingertips. I didn't have a chance of making a decent recording back then because I had no idea where to learn about it.

I'm much more limited today by my abilities and my room than I am by the gear I use. It really didn't take that long to figure out, either.

But I'm still a gearslut, if temporarily sidelined by circumstance. I keep telling Riley I'm just 10 or 20 grand from really having a nice little studio........

[camn]

Originally posted by toadies
so your saying i could get a great mix by experience using a mackie board then to being unexperience using a SSL board.

or are you saying doesn't matter experience or not, you can get great mix by using crappy board just as if you us a SSL board.

The first one.

And he implys that you can certainly get a shitty mix out of an SSL... if you happen to be an amateur with no ears.

xoxo

[cavedog101]

Is this relative to the subjective of the reality within which we all reside?or whut??
okay truth be known....yer right....and yes the world revolves around unethical salesscum everywhere....thats why all gear is touted as having the clearest most brilliant sound imaginable..if you have skills like a george massenberg or someone of that nature then i'm sure the results with ANY gear is going to be better than say some young idiot who tinkers with a room full of gear at banjo center all day long and then calls himself an engineer at night...I've had good gear..great gear...medium gear and a fukin tascam 4 track cassette recorder with an sm-57....all of these different levels helped me get some kind of handle on dealing with recorded noises...am i good at it? depends on the day....would an ssl help me? no but an ssl with an assistant who knows that piece real well would....i guess at some point you cross the line from recordist to producer...on my gear here at the ranch, i am all things to all men...in someone elses house with their set-up i would be humbled trying to figgure out how to work their stuff...

[Light]

To be honest, I was mostly just venting about unethical marketing practices (a redundant phrase, if ever there was one), and the way we all (and I include myself) buy into it.

In the end, better gear can make some difference. The thing is, the higher your skill, the higher the benefit you will get from the gear. The time you spend at Banjo Mart would almost always be better spent in the studio, working.

so your saying i could get a great mix by experience using a mackie board then to being unexperience using a SSL board.

or are you saying doesn't matter experience or not, you can get great mix by using crappy board just as if you us a SSL board.

The first. Skills will trump gear every time. I would rather listen to Tchad Blake with a DAT machine and a pair of 57's than myself with a Studer, a Neve and a room full of U-47s.

Work, work, work, work, work. Nothing else will get you as far.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[toadies]

Originally posted by Light


The first. Skills will trump gear every time. I would rather listen to Tchad Blake with a DAT machine and a pair of 57's than myself with a Studer, a Neve and a room full of U-47s.

Work, work, work, work, work. Nothing else will get you as far.

you honestlly think he can make a better recording then you? with a pair of 57s and a dat? There has to be some sort of degree on your statement.

[Light]

Originally posted by toadies
you honestlly think he can make a better recording then you? with a pair of 57s and a dat? There has to be some sort of degree on your statement.

Well, I must admit that is a loaded statement. First of all, Tchad Blake is one of the only engineers who is, in and of himself, enough of a reason for me to buy an album. I am a fan. And I am comfortable with my level of skill, and I think I have good (though not great) ears. But Tchad Blake has got amazing skills, and phenomenal ears. So, yeah, I do mean the above statement. Of course, I listen to a number of records he HAS made with a DAT machine and two mics (not 57s, but the mics he uses cost LESS than a pair of 57s). He frequently uses a technique called binaural recording, and makes amazing records with it. He recently did an album with Tony Levin. It is quite cool. It was recorded binaurally, live, in a cave. Very cool.

None the less, I stand by my statement, that great skill, and great ears, with mediocre gear, will make a better record than good skill and ears, with great gear. So no, there is no degree to that statement. This is my whole point. The gear is NOT important, the skill and ears of the engineer (and of course the musicians) is paramount.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

[zallen25]

Yes "work" or practice will prevail. I must say though, I have done a few tests since the forbidden site of "good cables". Although seeing Monster market different cables for different styles of music (which is a bit retarded), I have actually heard an improvement in the "quality" of the sound, which I will describe as being more crisp and clear in the high end along with an overall higher output (which doesn't exactally mean its better). Also I tried some of Blue's mic cable also with similar characteristics as the monster. Keep in mind I A/B'ed between demo cable and some what people would describe as "regular" cable. Now as mr. bear said how better gear can make your recording job easier, I would find it nessary for "myself" to use gear that would help this aspect. Yes its a very small factor that using better cable will improve your ouput (no matter what brand you prefer), and im sure its nothing that can be fixed with good mixing technique, but making the best possible recordings you can from the start will help prevent excess tweaking in the end. I say.......do what you got to do

[DeadPoet]

(ready to chime in)

Audio engineering is like playing music. A beginner with a $200,000 guitar is gonna sound like shit, while an experienced player with a Behringer guitar that has 3 strings broken and the other 3 out of tune will still sound great.

Why is that ? Because the experienced player has EXPERIENCE ( ) He worked for days and nights on his instrument, has a some degree of talent and knows the way his instrument reacts and responds.

I've always be in favor of this: I went to the conservatory to study Jazz with an electric bass worth about 250$. In second year I picked up the double bass and got me a 500$ upright, but learned to play on those, and tried to make an acceptable sound on those instruments. When I look back, I've should have gotten me some better instruments earlier ('t was until 3rd year that I got myself a more decent electric bass) but in general I don't regret that at all.

One of the greatest bass players in the world told me: there's no magic in playing music, it just hard practice.


Herwig

[chessrock]

I agree with you, but only to a small extent.

Gear absolutely does matter.

Only not as much the gear you record with as the gear you perform with.

A great-sounding guitar with good pickups, played through a lush-sounding amp will practically mic itself. It'll probably mix itself, too . . . and if you don't keep a close eye on it, you might even catch it surfing the net looking at porn or studying up on Gandhi.

Here's a real-life example: I don't like the sound I'm getting on cymbals half the time. When I first started out, my inclination would have been to visit the mic forum or the mixing forum and ask around as to what mic and/or mixing technique might help me solve my crappy-cymbal dilemna.

And I still do that, don't get me wrong, but the most relevant advice I'm getting is in the drum forum. Thanks to a few trips there, I've learned more than I want to know about how cymbal size, weight, and age can all affect the tone of a cymbal. And yes, the brand of cymbal is important, and no, there aren't many corners you can cut, financially-speaking, if you want to get the kind of hi-hat or ride tone you're after.

And don't even get me started on the bass. Get the best one you can to begin with . . . use only the best strings you can afford and get it set up every 3 months if you play regularly -- every 6 months if you play somewhat regular.

After that, just plug it in to any spare channel on the mixer, your favorite DI, or your ART Toob MP and you should be fine. What you plug it in to is just so imaterial compared to the quality and upkeep of your bass (and that's not even saying anything of the player's technique). An Avalon M5 is an outstanding box, but I can't recall a time I've heard it make up for old, worn-out strings and/or poor grounding.

So yes, I think gear is enormously important -- I just think that we tend to worry too much about the wrong kind of gear.

[DeadPoet]

Off course gear matters. It makes life easier for engineers.

I agree chess... good players/experience are 85% of the job, good gear is what makes the job easier/more fun.

Make sure everything sounds good before you get out the first mic.

BTW: could you be a bit more elaborate on the setting up of the bass ? I play bass for a living, and once set up I never touch the settings again (except maybe adjusting intonation on bridge).
Maybe I haven't found a bass techie yet that connects with me on the way *I* play.......


Herwig... gotta work more...

[Son of Mixerman]

I agree and I disagree.

Both are true depending on where you are at and how your mind works. Gear matters more as the learning curve flattens out. Why? Because not all pictures look great in color, sometimes black and white is more suitable.
When your learing its good to have gear that is a realistic representitive of real word funtionality. A compressor like the Alesis 3630 is not a good unit to cut your teeth on in compression techniques. I would say the RNC is even a bad choice for that. Something with character would work better because it exaggerates the effect. Something that doesn't work, does nothing for the learner.
Equipment can inspire you to try things, its like a new girlfriend. In a home studio, you really don't need lots of variation because the summing isn't drastically effected by average gear. But when your pushing 28 to 60 tracks into a 72 input console, you better have your act together or you will destroy the mix. Crappy gear reveals itself when pushed hard. But experience can help you get around. Ive always looked at it from a noise stand point. 10 noisy devises is worse than 1 noisy devise. If you need more than 1, make sure its not noisy. Noise is the enemy. Never believe te hype by advertising. Read reviews. Take it back if you don't like it.
Learn from others people mistakes. Learn to crawl before you fly, then buy the airplane.

Life is a big crossfade.

SoMm

[chessrock]

Originally posted by DeadPoet
BTW: could you be a bit more elaborate on the setting up of the bass ?

Ask around. You're the pro.

[DeadPoet]

Originally posted by chessrock
Ask around. You're the pro.

*ppppfffflllllrrrrtttt*


Hmmmm that bottle of amaretto I found back tastes especially good tonite



Herwig

[pipelineaudio]

the recording gear itself tho DOES determine the absolute ceiling that the sound can aspire to. Of course, most will get nowhere near the ceiling of even crappy gear, and I guess that's the point

[skippy]

Re: Tchad Blake, a DAT, and a pair of SM57s: his skills are amazing. If you have a chance, get a copy of Tony Levin's "From The Caves of Iron Mountain", recorded by Blake. The entire thing was recorded live, one take, with a pair of small condenser mic capsules inserted directly into Blake's ear canals, straight to DAT. He basically converted *his own head* into a binaural head, and then spent the production walking around inside the cave as Levin, Steve Gorn, and Jerry Marotta played, changing the auditory viewpoint as they changed the feel of their improvisations. I'm listening to my copy now, in fact: Papa Bear Records PBDC2. Get it.

Minimal gear, maximal creativity. The music itself may or may not be your cup of tea (improvisational jazz with some very unusual instrumetation), but there's no guesswork as to the craftsmanship involved... It's marvelous to hear the ducks in the pond outside the cave, and have a perfect stereo soundfield to let you tell where they were at that instant with respect to the performers.

Chops are *everything*. No question, gear makes it easier, but a duffer with an SSL is very likely to produce a hissy, crunchy, not-quite-there product. Whereas a real pro with a Mackie will squeeze every bit of dynamic range out of his signal chain, optimize the gain structure to the limits of the art, and still make it damned good despite the gear. I'm a great believer in live (or nearly so) production, and minimalist gear and postprocessing. Blake can make it dance and sing with _nothing_. Amazing...

[cavedog101]

Skippy....got it. If you really 'know' yer stuff and play within the parameters of each and every devices abilities, you will produce a recording of some measure. The 'ease' comes with better gear coupled with experience. I posted earlier about needing a great assistant for work done on an SSL...while this is true, it is for me, only true in the mechanics of that system. It would have nothing to do with my abilities to 'hear' and deal with intricate parts of a mix or tracking.I know about mic placement because I've placed a couple million of em in my time. And I have the experiences of complete and utter experimentation in doing this very thing...Throw the book out and start over!! And this sort of thing has led to knowledge of tricks that work in most cases. Same with mixing.Having the run of a pro mid-level facility with enough toys to make records, and enough time to experiment has also brought me knowledge .Time is the only good teacher in this business. If you have the time to experiment and change things in a way thats not supposed to work at all,and then make them work in a new way, then you're moving forward. I can make a mackie sound like a lot of things, but for me its a lot of work.cause i dont like em that much. But give me an old quad-eight or a huge old MCI without all that computer crap in it , and i can give you a sound people will like and respect..

[cominginsecond]

Only not as much the gear you record with as the gear you perform with.

Oh, man Chess, you beat me to it. The source is the most important thing to get right when you're recording. Skills are the second most important thing, and recording gear is the third most important thing.