How to go from Delta 1010 to Monitors for best sound quality?

[Jedman]

Well, I think I'm fully setup now...the Delta 1010 should be coming UPS today; I got some JBL studio series monitors, and a Pioneer Amp/reciever.
Question is, what would make for the best sound quality? Should I go from the DIGITAL out of the Delta PCI card to the DIGITAL in of the Pioneer Amp? (With a digital coax cable)
Or should I just go from two 1/4" outputs of the Delta's rack with patch cables, and then get adapters to make them RCA style for the amp/reciever?
Specs on the Pioneer Amp are here: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pi...,23594,00.html

Specs on the JBL studio monitors here: http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...CheckProduct=Y

Specs on the M-Audio Delta1010 here: http://www.m-audio.com/products/m-audio/delt1010.php

Thanks for opinions & tips,
Jed

[alfalfa]

Your setup is a bit unbalanced. The pioneer is the weak link by far - av receivers (esp budget ones) have very poor amplification stages. Do you have the option of exchanging it for a decent integrated stereo amplifier? Perhaps consider getting cheaper monitors and a better amp.

If you have to use the pioneer then go from the analog outputs of the 1010 to the 5.1 channel inputs of the pioneer (just use the 2 front channel inputs). The dacs in the 1010 are better than the pioneer and using the 5.1 inputs of the pioneer is the cleanest signal path (otherwise your signal will be go thru another adc/dac in the pioneer).

But you have to consider the balance of your setup. The pioneer will not do justice to the 1010 or jbl monitors.

[Jedman]

Hmmm...what kind of amp are you suggesting? I bought this one, thinking it was pretty good...but, I'm definatly a noob, so if you can shed some light on this subject, I'd be happy. I can't take the monitors back, but I bought the Pioneer reciever from Best Buy, so if there was something different that I need, I could take it back for a couple of days yet.

(Since you don't accept Emails/PMs, could you please explain more to me? - like what amp/reciever I should get?)
Thanks for your help!
Jed

[alfalfa]

Read this thread where I discuss this issue with ambi

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...threadid=77964

I would go with a stereo integrated amplifier - ie an amplifier (with volume control) designed for driving a pair of speakers. Eg Rotel, NAD, Marantz, Arcam. Avoid hometheater/AV receivers and generally anything made by sony, panasonic, pioneer.

[Jedman]

Alright...I checked on Ebay, and I could get a ROTEL RB 970BX Mk II for right at $200.
Is that a good model, or would you suggest a different one? You said the system is unbalanced the way I have it, and th eonly thing I can take back is the Pioneer -- so I guess that's what I'll change. I'll try to take it back to Best Buy; hopefully they take it back!

Please let me know some of your "favorite" budget, but good quality models if you could. I don't need tons of LOUD power output...just high quality. My "studio" (really my computer room) is about 12' by 16'.
Thank you for your time,
Jed

[alfalfa]

Some decent budget integrated amps I have heard are the Rotel RA-02 and the NAD C320 or C350. The older Rotel 931 and 971/972 and Nad C340 are also good if you can find some second hand. Go to your local HiFi store and see what they have.

I am not familiar with the rotel model you mentioned, probably because it is quite an old model. You need to find out if it is an integrated amp or a power amp. Power amps have no volume control (which I suspect you need).

In terms of budget, I would spend about the same amount (or more) on the amplifier as the speakers. This is only a rough guide - let us know what specific models you are considering.

[Jedman]

Sorry to bug you one more time, but I just thought of something: if Best Buy will only let me exchange this Pioneer (if they don't give me a refund), are there any good recievers/amps that I could pick from their store? (I know, it wouldn't be the best, but worst case scenerio - either that or I'd be stuck with the bill and this Pioneer which would be worthless to me.)

Thanks, and I will try to see if there is a good HiFi store around here tomorrow. Anyone know of one around Davenport, Iowa? (that's Quad Cities area, IA / IL)

Jed

[alfalfa]

Sorry I'm from Australia so I have no idea what they have in best buy (or even what best buy is)

When you are there, look for a stereo integrated amplifier and not a home theater receiver (ie 2 channels not 5). Any stereo amp will be better than a hometheater receiver at the same price.

[Jedman]

Ok, thanks. That gives me something to go off -- I mean, I'm looking for a 2 channel amp, not a "home theatre 5.1 reciever."
www.bestbuy.com pretty much has their selection, I think. Anyway, hopefully they'll let me refund; if not, I'll see what they have. Does it matter if I get an amp/reciever that does 24/96 or whatever? I mean do the specs mean anything, or am I just going by "if I like what they sound like"?

Again, thank you, because I know almost nothing about this stuff...just learning!

Jed

[alfalfa]

Looked at the website ... get a refund. Good luck.

[Jedman]

This will probably show how much I don't know, but...why would it still "degrade" the sound coming out of the JBLs if I go from (2) 1/4" balanced outs of the Delta 1010 to a pair of L & R RCA inputs on the Pioneer? Wouldn't I be using the Delta's DAC that way, and all the Pioneer is doing is amplifying the signal?
I guess I'm not understanding where the quality loss happends ... can someone please explain where the loss is taking place?
I know, I'm not very "in the know" about amps and stuff.

Jed

[alfalfa]

The pioneer does a very poor job of amplifying the signal.

Amplication is one of the many tasks the pioneer is expected to do at a budget price. It compromises sound quality for lots of 'features'. An stereo amp only job is to provide amplification for two channels. You cant expect the av receiver to have DACs, DD and DTS processing, dsp effects, a radio, bass management and 5 channels of amplification for the same price and be the same sound quality as an integrated stereo amp.

Amplifiers perform an important role. "Amplifying the signal" is not a simple task (and I dont claim to understand it). The sound quality of your setup is limited by the weakest link in your signal chain and in this case is the pioneer by a long margin. Do an extended side by side listening comparison between your pioneer and a similarly priced integrated amp.

[Jedman]

I see now. Comparing a reciever to an integrated amp is like apples to oranges - they aren't meant to do the same thing(s).
So...could I use one of the "Studio Amplifiers" like the ART SLA-1 Studio Power Amplifier from www.musiciansfriend.com ?
It would be cool if I could go with something like that, because of the cost and also they're rack mount, which is better for me anyway.

What do you think of that style amplifier?

Jed

[alfalfa]

I expressed my thoughts on studio amps vs hifi amps in the thread I linked above. Essentially I feel the tradeoff is reliability and ruggedness vs sound quality/accuracy at a given price point.
Your best bet is a side by side listening comparison with your speakers and soundcard in your studio/room.

[Jedman]

Went back and read that...I think I'll stick with regular reciever/amp style. Don't think I need a special studio monitor amp. Well, thanks for the help, and I'll see what's in the budget. If I have to stick with this Pioneer for a while, at least I know the first thing to upgrade! Man, I'm not a "pro musician", so I don't know if I'd even tell a difference...I would also miss a lot of the features on this reciever (I will do more with it than just monitoring mixes).
Is it possible there are any recievers that are just a little bit better than this Pioneer for a little more money? Like if they'd let me upgrade to a Kenwood or Sony or something else (somewhat more expensive model)?
Thanks again for your time, I might just have to stick with this for now...
Jed

[alfalfa]

Get a receiver that has preamp outputs so you can upgrade by adding an external power amp when you have more cash.

[Jedman]

That does sound like the best way right now. I can keep the functionality of the reciever (which I do enjoy, just being a hobbyist), and get higher quality sound later.
I did notice that the Pioneer I got has a reletively high Total Harmonic Distortion - 1.0%. I was looking at this Kenwood at Best Buy (I'm sure they would at least let me trade up), and it has .09% -- that's quite a difference, isn't it?
Here's the webpage for that Kenwood: http://www.kenwoodusa.com/product/pr...productId=2450

It also does 24bit/96Khz, so it might be as good as the Delta 1010 DAC? What do you think, should I upgrade to this one?

I really appreciate your comments, just trying to decide, because I really think I'd like to stick w/ a multi-function reciever of some sort.
Jed

[alfalfa]

Why are you worried about the dac on the receiver? Your delta 1010 has very good dacs so use those.
For watching dvds you wont notice much difference, or use a software dvd player.

If you really need an av receiver, get the cheapest one that has 5.1 analog inputs (and passthrough ie no redigitizing of the signal) and preamp outputs. Start saving for a decent integrated or power amp. Dont waste any more money than you have to on an av receiver.

ps what features do you need the av receiver for?

[Jedman]

So I should just keep this Pioneer and save for a dedicated amp for mixing?
I like having the A/V receiver because of all the inputs -- I have some midi modules hooked up to it for just plinking on my studiologic controller (so that way I don't have to turn on the computer & run Sonar), and the 5.1 surround is nice for watching movies, and playing the occasional game, because I hook up my sub woofer and surrounds to it. Also, and this might sound dumb, it does give me an FM stereo, which I wouldn't have otherwise. So would that Kenwood be noticably better, or should I just stick w/ this?

*you have convinced me to use the Delta's DAC* Sorry for being a block head about that, but I was trying to figure out how to use the digital connections -- I guess I shouldn't. Should I use two 1/4" to 1/4" patch cables, and then adapter to RCA, or use two RCA cables and adapt to 1/4"? Or does it really matter?

Oh yeah, what connectors should the reciever have for it to support external pre-amp?
Thank you for the expertise,
Jed

[alfalfa]

Well if the pioneer has preamp outs for at least the front channels (Front L & R) then I would keep it. If not then go for a receiver that does. That makes your upgrade path straightforward and convenient. Make sure it explicitly says pre amp outputs in the manual eg 5.1 preamplifier outputs. You should see some rca plugs labelled preamp out on the back as well.

I understand about having lots of things connected to the receiver (and the radio). Its always a tradeoff of features and convenience versus sound quality - everyone has different needs/priorities. And noone should have to turn on a computer just to play some tunes.

Not sure about the cables and adaptors. Depends what cables you most commonly use. If you are good with soldering consider making your own, you'll save heaps compared with buying quality cable.

Hope that helps. My apologies if some of my responses were a little abrupt - dont mean to be rude.

[Jedman]

Well, I sure appreciate your help in all this. The Pioneer I had didn't have any preamps except for the subwoofer, so I exchanged it for a Pioneer VSX-D811S. The new reciever is 6.1 / 7.1, 100watt X 6, and has preamps available on every channel. Web link is here: http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/Pi...,23598,00.html
When the time (money ) comes, as you pointed out, I can just add the pro-quality amps to it. I brought it home a couple hours ago, and am very pleased with the sound.

In the thread you linked, you mentioned something about "clipping" at high volumes, and destroying the tweeters. Could you please explain what that is? I don't want to destroy these speakers, because frankly, I could not afford another set! Is there a recomended db level to run the amp at with my pioneer being 100watts/channel, and the speakers rated for a max of 150 each? It's plently loud at -45db when I'm sitting at my computer...

Again, thank you, and I feel that this is my best solution for my multiple hobby needs and budget right now.

Jed Smith

[ambi]

I think it has to do with the home theatre receiver not being really heavy duty and made to handly really loud transients or really hot signals, so the amp can clip. Sending the clipped signal to your monitors and making them go BOOM!

I think it you just don't listen through your monitors while tracking. I've heard the example of a live bass guitar being very dangerous running hot through a mic and being played through the speakers at the same time.

Just use the monitors to mix (not listening to whats coming through the mic LIVE, i mean), and don't push the amp TOO much. I think they clip at lower levels than a heavy duty studio style amp, the pro audio amps are made really rugged, so they can handle really loud signals cleanly, and run all day without coughing out. Same with monitors, they're designed to be able to play really loud without distorting or colouring, unlike hi fi speakers.
i think that's all close to correct.

[Jedman]

Thanks for clearing that up, Ambi. I guess it's not something I have to worry about, because I'll *never* get this reciever over about -30db (the neighbor is my Uncle, and he would kill me! He is also my land lord ). In fact, I'll probably keep it around -45db for monitoring mixes...my apartment isn't that big.

Well, I'm just impatiently waiting for my Delta 1010 to get here off of Ebay!

Jed