Sound Quality of Bounced Tracks

[Knopfler Fan]

Okay, I can safely say that I have noticed a difference in the sound quality when tracks are bounced, even with a digital recorder like the MR-8.

Over the weekend, I tracked 4 instruments onto 1 thru 4 and bounced to 5/6. I then erased 1 thru 4 and recorded an additional 2 tracks onto 1 and 2 and then bounced everything to 7/8.

The sound coming through my headphones on track 7/8 definitely sounded muffled compared to the clean, crisp sound on the original bounced track 5/6. I kept the two and compared them side by side and could hear the difference. It's not even subtle!

So, having said that, I think that I should learn to use some of the software mixing programs. Or else, I should record songs with only 4 instruments

Anyone else have the same observation or am I out in left field (and I can't even play baseball)?!


KF

[gospel]

I was wondering about this. I am planning on using N-track, but have not gotten around to it yet. When I bounced a song I did using tracks 1-4 bounced to 7,8 there was a subtle yet noticeble change. Did you use a mastering effect when you bounced? Maybe the "bright" would help? I used "natural".

[Blue Bear Sound]

The MR-8 uses data compression in storing the digital audio, at the expense of sound quality, it would be very normal for there to be degradation when you bounce tracks (you lose resolution everytime you bounce - much like you would with an analog recorder!)

[clifchamb]

I used to bounce tracks on the MR-8 but now I use club tracks and I don't think I can ever go back to bouncing on the MR-8 (that sounded like a commercial)


clif

[bdbdbuck]

Clif,
Got your e-mail, I'll do that.

bd

[clifchamb]

You mean send me an MP3? Cool!



clif

[mrx]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
The MR-8 uses data compression in storing the digital audio, at the expense of sound quality...

Can you point me to that in the manual/brochure, etc.?

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by mrx
Can you point me to that in the manual/brochure, etc.?

Well hang me up! I saw the CompactFlash card spec and assumed it was compressed!

But you're right - I just looked more closely - 16-bit, 44.1kHz uncompressed.... while I'm sure the converters won't win awards, there must be another reason for the sound degradation then.... maybe the bouncing occurs post-converter as analog???

[Bigsnake00]

What kinda effects does club tracks support?

b

[dyuob]

Originally posted by Bigsnake00
What kinda effects does club tracks support?

b

Theoretically, it can support all DirectX effects.
I say theoretically only because I haven't tried them all yet....

[dyuob]

Originally posted by Bigsnake00
What kinda effects does club tracks support?

b

You might try
news.cakewalk.com with your newsreader, they have quite a few DirectX newsgroups there.

[Bigsnake00]

I guess what i meant to ask was does club tracks come with any effects..?

b

[clifchamb]

Club Tracks does come with effects Just basic stuff like reverb chorus etc. Nothing fancy, in fact I don't even use them much. I am interested in all thi talk about directx effects that I can use with it but I am not familier with how to obtain them, guess I'll check out the cakewalk page.

clif

[Bigsnake00]

www.directxfiles.com...this seems to be a good place to start....so club tracks doesnt have any major eq or compression?

b

[clifchamb]

Originally posted by Bigsnake00
www.directxfiles.com...this seems to be a good place to start....so club tracks doesnt have any major eq or compression?

b

there is a limited graphic EQ and a parametric EQ that you could add to each track. As far as compression, I havnt found it yet. It seems to be a very siple program.

clif

[mrx]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
Well hang me up! I saw the CompactFlash card spec and assumed it was compressed!

But you're right - I just looked more closely - 16-bit, 44.1kHz uncompressed.... while I'm sure the converters won't win awards, there must be another reason for the sound degradation then.... maybe the bouncing occurs post-converter as analog???

Good point - I also wonder if what you hear while monitoring the mix is not what's getting printed. For example, panning on the MR-8 can be extreme - maybe that's not getting reflected in the mix, etc.

[Knopfler Fan]

Thanks for the responses, but now I think I'm more confused than before.

I guess there really isn't a clear answer to all of this. I'll do some more experimenting and see what happens. Perhaps I'll bounce everything dry (no panning, no effects, no mastering) and see whether I still notice the difference in sound quality.

Maybe I should just learn to use Clubtracks!



KF

[morindae]

I haven't done any bouncing in the MR8 myself. However, I think some experimenting is in order. A lot of us are waiting for the larger capacity CF cards to come down in price so that we can do more with the MR8 before going to the computer. If it degrades the sound to bounce in the machine then it is a limitation we should explore. I was hoping to have both options available because there will certainly be occasions where we are going to want to mix and master in the MR8 itself.

[clifchamb]

That's funny, I don't notice any sound loss when I bounce on the MR-8.


clif

[morindae]

Clifchamb, I'm relieved to hear that. I haven't had time to explore this aspect of the MR8. I hope we get some more replies on this thread to help clear this up. I'll try to make some time this week to see for myself.

[Earlds]

I know that every one on this board knows more about digital recording than I do ,but I will still give my two cents just because I want to be included...I strongly suspect that the degradation of sound is happening in the PC software not in the MR8.Otherwize Fostex has a real big proplem...If I had an mr8 I would record and bounce a few times within the machine and see ...I hope my wife will let me buy the VF80 in a couple of months..Than I will be more worthy ..Don...

[digitcallous]

I have not noticed degradation bouncing tracks on the MR-8 when no effects are used. If there is degradation it is so minimal that my ears can't hear it. I have also bounced tracks while applying reverb effect. Other than the added reverb I did not notice any degradation either.

I have experienced a problem bouncing tracks (mixing down to 7/8) when I used the mixing effects. I mixed down one song using one of the mixdown effects (I think it was POWERFUL) and when I listened to the result I noticed that the volume varied at different points of the song. When I remixed it with no mixing effects the problem went away. I have not used the mixing effects since so I don't know whether that is a persistent problem.

DC

[clifchamb]

Originally posted by digitcallous
I mixed down one song using one of the mixdown effects (I think it was POWERFUL) and when I listened to the result I noticed that the volume varied at different points of the song.

DC

The "powerful" mastering effect is a HUGE amount of compression and with no way to adjust the settings this could happen to some of your recordings.

clif

[Eric-Jensen]

Isn't the sound quality of bounces lower because it's all being done in 16 bits in the MR8? The information from 2 or more 16-bit tracks, together with 16-bit reverb, mastering eq, etc. is being merged into one 16 bit track, and that has to have an information cost that we can hear. N-tracks says that it does everything internal in 32 bits. You can then master to lower precision for (16 bit) CD masters, etc., if you want that, but as much information as possible is preserved until mastering. Most of the slightly bigger setups than the MR8 (Boss 10 track, Tascam 788) can use 24 bit recording and processing, which must help, and some of the really serious computer surfaces can go to like 192 kHz sampling and 32 bits, if you have the computer to support it. One more reason to use the MR8 as a portable sound card, and edit on n-tracks!