Near Rhymes

[Garry Sharp]

Or false rhymes, call them what you will.

I like them, will happily rhyme "home" with "alone", or "blues" with "do". On that Parcel Song thing some of us were messing round with a while ago, stonepiano brilliantly rhymed "talks" with "box". I loved it.

But then I have just been reading Jimmy Webb's book, Tunesmith, and he condemns them as spawn of the devil. Use them if you will, he says, but they're cheap and you'll be found out.

Well, personally I think that's horseshit and anyway I find "By The Time I Get to Phoenix" and "Macarthur's Park" rather dull, but he's famous and I'm a nobody. What do you think?

[Porter]

If it fits.... use it.

Songwriting is all about self expression. Personally its about getting the story across. I ready the Dummies guide to Songwriting.. it said listed it as a rhyme.. said it was a rhyme that some famous songwriters didn't believe in. I believe in it.

Porter

[Cyrokk]

Anyone that insists pigeonholing lyrics into whether they end in the same three or four letters has no real concept of songwriting.

No one gives a crap if the song literally "rhymes". Hell, some of the best written songs are ones that don't rhyme at all, only becoming noticeable when it's pointed out to the listener.

[Rodeo]

Yeah, like Cryokk says, I think the song has a problem when attention is drawn to whether things rhyme or not.
Me, I'm a big one for assonantal near rhyme. I don't place any particular value in having the exact same consonants as well; ie "blues" and "do, like Garry said, because the vowel sound matches.

Try to make up for it with a swag of rhyming, alliteration, repitition etc within the verse - I can't get enough of it. It's so much richer and memorable than just line after line of words which happen to rhyme at the end of each.

A line I wrote last night:

I thought you would be with me
There, to kiss me here and there, to miss me

[Porter]

Hey Rodeo,

Originally posted by Rodeo
A line I wrote last night:

I thought you would be with me
There, to kiss me here and there, to miss me

As such that isn't a rhyme

There is another term for it.. I just can't think of it at the moment.

Porter

[Rodeo]

I'd be interested to hear what that term is because I'm interested in poetic devices etc (well I guess that's a redundant thing to say in the Songwriters forum). If you meant the 'last word in the line' then that was deliberate as those lines have a more internal dynamic.
I guess a more correct way to write it in the first place would be:

..................................... I
Thought you would be with me there, to
Kiss me here and there, to miss me

(emphasis on the 1st syllable)
(iambic quadrameter?)

But the way I originally set it it out is the way it would be sung, so the second line is rushed at the beginning.

Oh boy the more I dissect these lyrics the less I like them (it's always the way)

I guess the way I like to do it is have lyrics that, if set out properly, have generally accurate rhythmic structure, yet in terms of vocal delivery are more syncopated, natural, and less like a classroom recital of Wordsworth.

[joro]

Originally posted by Cyrokk
Hell, some of the best written songs are ones that don't rhyme at all, only becoming noticeable when it's pointed out to the listener.

Please do point them out....
I would like to know what some of the best written songs are....

Thanks man,

[Rodeo]

'Dreams' by Fleetwood Mac - very weak rhyming, except on the chorus; which I guess is a trick in itself.

'Suzanne' - Cohen

'Losing My Religion' - REM - "Rhyming, where are you?"

'Special Ones' - George (Aussie band/hit single)

They're just ones of the top of my head. They share a theme of intropsectivity.

[Porter]

Rodeo,

When you say it that way, it's actually an Internal Rhyme..

Porter

[joro]

Originally posted by Rodeo
'Dreams' by Fleetwood Mac - very weak rhyming, except on the chorus; which I guess is a trick in itself.

'Suzanne' - Cohen

'Losing My Religion' - REM - "Rhyming, where are you?"

They're just ones of the top of my head. They share a theme of intropsectivity.

They also all rhyme.....
never heard of 'Special Ones' - George (Aussie band/hit single)...

[Rodeo]

Show me the rhyme..

Suzanne takes you down to her place near the river
You can hear the boats go by You can spend the night beside her
And you know that she's half crazy But that's why you want to be there
And she feeds you tea and oranges That come all the way from China

'river' and '*side her' is a bit of a stretch, but "there" and "China" doesn't even come close.

Life is bigger, It's bigger than you
And you are not me, The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes, Oh no I've said too much,I set it up

That's me in the corner, That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it, Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough
I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper, Of every waking hour
I'm Choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded foo, Oh no I've said too much, I set it up
Consider this, Consider this, The hint of the century
Consider this, The slip that brought me to my knees failed
What if all these fantasies, Come flailing around
Now I've said too much

"said too much" and "said enough" in the first chorus, that's all I see.

'Dreams' - I looked up the lyrics and fair enough - I never noticed some of the rhyming in the verse, it's pretty well hidden.

As for 'Special Ones', well, as I said, they're an Aussie band and I assumed it wouldnt've made any impression on the US market.

[joro]

Show me the rhyme..


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suzanne takes you down to her place
near the river
You can hear the boats go by You can spend the night
beside her

And

you
know that she's half crazy
But
that's why
you want to be there
And

she feeds
you tea
And
oranges
That come all the way from China

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


'river' and '*side her' is a bit of a stretch, but "there" and "China" doesn't even come close.
no one says it has to be at the end of the line to make it rhyme...


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life is bigger,
It's bigger, than
you
And you are not me,
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes, Oh no
I've said too much,
I set it up

That's me in the corner,
That's me in the spotlight
Losing
my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't
know
if I can do it,
Oh
no I've said too much
I haven't said enough

I will stop here...I gotta get back to work....
beleive it or not (agree or not) a word will rhyme perfectly with itself...ya know?

[Jagular]

Originally posted by Garry Sharp
Or false rhymes, call them what you will...

...What do you think?

I think that is complete horse shit and I’m more of a stickler for rhyme schemes & structure than many. Near rhymes are used all the time and quite well accepted from what I can tell in the critiques I have heard. My opinion is that, since the goal is to have every word in a song actually add to the song, it is much better to use a near rhyme or possibly no rhyme than to stick a true rhyme in just for the sake of structure. It is usually pretty obvious when someone does this and it tends to detract from the song as a whole. I have even heard this type of advice here in Nashville where structure is king and rhyme is his handmaiden, so it must be true

That being said, I do prefer a true rhyme over a near rhyme if possible.

[Garry Sharp]

We all seem to be in violent agreement then.....

[Jagular]

Originally posted by Garry Sharp
We all seem to be in violent agreement then.....

hehe...

[stonepiano]

I've also read Jimmy Webb's Tunesmith and agree with him if you're trying to pawn songs off or write a musical.

If you're an artist, the unexpected "near-rhyme" is more delightfully daring than the cliched standard rhyme.

[mikeh]

I'm in the process of reading Webb's book. I've never been a fan of his, but he has been hugely successful.

I tend to try to write in the traditional manner and as such when ever possible I try to use true rhymes rather than near rhymes. However, a good near rhyme that paints a picture is much preferred to a poor true rhyme just to have a complete line.

I do use near rhymes for internal rhymes fairly often.

[Rodeo]

Originally posted by joro
beleive it or not (agree or not) a word will rhyme perfectly with itself...ya know? [/B]

Hey I was the one that gave my lyric above as exhibit A of internal rhyming/repitition, in the absence of rhyming in the strict sense. But what you've highlighted above, I don't consider to be anywhere near rhyming in the strict sense, as it is completely separated from meter.

All you've highlighted is repitition, which is distinct from rhyming in my book.

[Buffalo Bob]

Ogden Nash was the Master of Illegitimate Rhyme.

[stonepiano]

"The cow is of the bovine ilk
on one end is moo, the other milk"

O.N.

[Jagular]

"Candy
Is Dandy
But liquor
Is quicker"

My favorite from O.N.

Happy Valentine's Day

[Garry Sharp]

They tell me Heraclitus
They tell me you are dead
I just wonder who you were
And what it was you said

English schoolboys passim...

[bdbdbuck]

Jag,
I love that tune!








Aint nobody's business but my own.

bd

[Roktuk]

My 2cents. If it sounds good it doesnt matter if it rhymes or not.

Example = Pantera - Strength Beyond Strength

There is nothing. No education.
No family life to open my arms to.
You'd say that my job is today, yet gone tomorrow.
I'll be broke in a gutter.
I know the opinion. A broken record. Fuck you and your
College dream. Fact is, we're stronger than all.
You're working for perfect bodies,
perfect minds and perfect
Neighbors. But I'm helping to legalize dope on
Your pristine streets and I'm making a fortune.
You're muscle and gall. Naive at best.
I'm bone, brain and cock.
Deep down stronger than all.

A sad state of affairs. A crippled America.
A pipe dream buttfucked.
Immune. Stronger than all.

A lament for a rookie officer,
punk ass weak little lamb.
For the mob, truly, does rule at this particular time.

We've grown into a monster.
An arrogant, explosive motherfuck.
Hard as a rock. Shut like a lock.
Finally, the president in submission.
He holds out his hand on
Your television and draws back a stump.
It's too late for some.

Far too late.

No more holdbacks. No more paying a cops paycheck.
Let him bust his own child.
The son that heeds my word and smokes my dope.
The daughter that sucks me off and
snorts cheap anything.

Hail Kings. The new Kings. Stronger than all.

A simple process to legalize.
There would not be a choice but to
Take our side.
Be there no question of certain strengths. Know
This intention.
Forever stronger than all.




Reading it doesn't do it justice, to me this works so well it's scary. IMO it's much harder to find the right words, and much easier to find a rhyme.

[Layla Nahar]

Originally posted by Garry Sharp
Or false rhymes, call them what you will.

I like the symmetry of good rhymes - I mean, part of why we went into this is because we love words, right, but when the lyrics are forced so that you have a rhyme, now that's false.

So, yeah, I use half rhymes, I'd say there's nothing wrong with it. I also use a word that doesn't rhyme at all, if I need to get a certain meaning into a line and a rhyming word would sound really trite.

speaking of all this, I need to practice versifying.