Delta and the newer Sonar version...

[Still' Dreamin']

M-Audio, (Delta 66/OMNI), has'nt introduced any drivers for the Delta-66 since May/'02. Not a very good sign.

Also, M-Audio states that it supports WDM drivers but only for Win 2000 OPSYS. I'm hoping that they'll introduce support for WDM in Win 98SE, (that's what I use). I have and love Sonar. And I would like to try WDM in my opsys with the Delta card.

When using Sonar XL 2.2. , the default drivers for Sonar are MME if one allows Sonar to profile Delta-66. Eventhough Sonar's newest version supports ASIO drivers, my first attempt in using ASIO I got that hidious click/pop upon starting playback of a current project.

Currently, it seems that Delta does not support WDM in Sonar/Win 98SE. I tried it and a pop up error message stated that the current soundcard does not support WDM drivers. The new Sonar also allows use of both 32 bit MME or 16 bit MME. That is what I'm using since that is the default profile and it seems to work best with the Delta sound card.

Sonar works great with the Delta/OMNI! But If I have more than 8 audio tracks, lots of pluggins, the drop-outs will begin to occur. Hopefully using ASIO drivers will cure this. But I first have to play with the settings to see if I can get rid of that click/pop thingy.

So far I've tried the audio recording software packages that came with Delta/Omni. The're o.k. but in my opinion, Sonar beats Cubase and E-magic in simplicity. It is much more user friendly to a musician and for the home audio recording buff.

[brzilian]

Originally posted by Still' Dreamin'
M-Audio, (Delta 66/OMNI), has'nt introduced any drivers for the Delta-66 since May/'02. Not a very good sign.

Also, M-Audio states that it supports WDM drivers but only for Win 2000 OPSYS. I'm hoping that they'll introduce support for WDM in Win 98SE, (that's what I use). I have and love Sonar. And I would like to try WDM in my opsys with the Delta card.

When using Sonar XL 2.2. , the default drivers for Sonar are MME if one allows Sonar to profile Delta-66. Eventhough Sonar's newest version supports ASIO drivers, my first attempt in using ASIO I got that hidious click/pop upon starting playback of a current project.

Currently, it seems that Delta does not support WDM in Sonar/Win 98SE. I tried it and a pop up error message stated that the current soundcard does not support WDM drivers. The new Sonar also allows use of both 32 bit MME or 16 bit MME. That is what I'm using since that is the default profile and it seems to work best with the Delta sound card.

Sonar works great with the Delta/OMNI! But If I have more than 8 audio tracks, lots of pluggins, the drop-outs will begin to occur. Hopefully using ASIO drivers will cure this. But I first have to play with the settings to see if I can get rid of that click/pop thingy.

So far I've tried the audio recording software packages that came with Delta/Omni. The're o.k. but in my opinion, Sonar beats Cubase and E-magic in simplicity. It is much more user friendly to a musician and for the home audio recording buff.

M-Audio did publish new drivers around Nov. '02 but pulled them due to some problems.

WDM drivers for 98SE will never happen because it does not have true WDM driver support and cannot provide the same performace 2000/XP can.

Good performance is not only dependant upon good drivers. You also need to have an adequate system.

I suggest you upgrade to 2000/XP as that is what Cakewalk wrote Sonar for. Yes, Cakewalk says Sonar works with 98SE, but those are the minimum requirements. The recommended OS to use is 2000/XP.

[moskus]

Originally posted by brzilian
I suggest you upgrade to 2000/XP as that is what Cakewalk wrote Sonar for. Yes, Cakewalk says Sonar works with 98SE, but those are the minimum requirements. The recommended OS to use is 2000/XP.

Agreed! I've used Sonar on ME, 2000 and XP, and 2000/XP with WDM-drivers worked without a problem.

[maddrummer]

I just upgraded to sonar 2.2 xl and tried using the asio driver instead of MME (i have win 98 and soon will be getting 2k or xp) and the cpu usage on something with 12 tracks and 15 effects was up around 75%, same as when using the MME, but with MME i would get a lot of dropouts and with the ASIO i don't get any. Does this sound right?

[Still' Dreamin']

I tried the ASIO's but I could'nt get rid of that pop/click at playback.

I find that the MME(32bit) drivers work best. On the menu bar, go to options, audio and to the advance tab. Where it says 'Playback and Recording' choose MME(32 Bit).

Max CPU usage is at 27-37% and I mix and bounce down alot.

I hate XP! I can't justify buying another operating system just for Sonar if all other apps and programs work well on Win98SE. That sucks!

I also have WinME on my other Computer and I'm not too crazy about it either. I set up my brothers new computer and I use it from time to time, (it has XP). I don't like it. And F*#k Win2000!

Sorry fellas, just venting. I really do like Win 98SE. This old work horse kicks ass.

[maddrummer]

Why don't you like XP?

[moskus]

Yeah, what's wrong with XP?

WinXP is (IMHO) the best Windows-OS ever. Stable and usefull (just disable that ugly interface). Win2000 was stable too. WinME was awfull! Win98SE was great, but it's getting too old. Win95 was tragic...

[ljc]

*************************************************
"WDM drivers for 98SE will never happen because it does not have true WDM driver support and cannot provide the same performace 2000/XP can.

Good performance is not only dependant upon good drivers. You also need to have an adequate system.

I suggest you upgrade to 2000/XP as that is what Cakewalk wrote Sonar for. Yes, Cakewalk says Sonar works with 98SE, but those are the minimum requirements. The recommended OS to use is 2000/XP. "
***************************************************

I'm getting excellent results with 98SE, and its backward compatible with my MOTU and legacy hardware that is no longer supported in new OS's. There are plenty of Boss rigs out there using Sonar and 98SE. Also I am using WDM drivers and working perfectly. There are patches, but not everybody sees problems.
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q242937

I disagree that Sonar is exclusive to XP. Sonar is just more follow on from the past cakewalk product and has a strong history with Win95 and Win98. I actually upgraded from cakewalk5 directly to Sonar. Absolutely seemless transition, much of the core app is original cakewalk. They have support for tons of legacy devices in Sonar and believe you me, there are more 98SE machines out there than XP probably for some time. they may have touted that it is XP optimized but that's just marketing. By the way, XP has plenty of driver troubles yet to overcome.


This comes direct from Sonar Help :

"In almost every situation, the newer WDM (Windows Driver Model) sound card drivers that most sound card vendors are creating are a much better choice than the older MME (Multi-Media Extensions) drivers. If your sound card vendor has a WDM driver, by all means use it. The following table compares their characteristics:

WDM...
Lower latency
Works with Windows XP, 2000, ME, 98 SE, but not 98 Gold


MME...
Usually higher latency
Works with Windows 98, and ME. Some MME drivers may work with Windows 2000. "

[Still' Dreamin']

Uhhhh.......so now like I'm totally confused.
If this is true then why can't I not use WDM drivers with Sonar/Delta/Omni/Win 98SE?

It sounds like the Delta/Omni is the problem.

M-Audio..... get it together guys and get it right! You have a good product don't blow it! Sonar/Delta/Win98SE work great together. Give us an updated driver!!!

[ljc]

I tried the m-audio 24/96 card for one day, it was pretty clear that the driver was antiquated and the software was bare bones. My system rejected it basically. Anyway, I think drivers are the game and to prove it, audigy sells a ton of cards, their drivers and software are very sophisticated. Too bad their hardware doesn't stack up for pro audio recording.

[moskus]

Originally posted by ljc
audigy sells a ton of cards, their drivers and software are very sophisticated.

Creatives drivers and software sucks! They don't get anything right (expect soundfonts, though). They have high latency, unstable drivers, fixed samplerate with ASIO-drivers and Creatives card is bound to cause problems if you put in another audiocard (and use WDM-drivers in Sonar).

[moskus]

Originally posted by ljc
I'm getting excellent results with 98SE, and its backward compatible with my MOTU and legacy hardware that is no longer supported in new OS's. There are plenty of Boss rigs out there using Sonar and 98SE. Also I am using WDM drivers and working perfectly. There are patches, but not everybody sees problems.
http://support.microsoft.com/default...;EN-US;q242937

I think Brzilian was talking about M-Audio WDM-support with Win98SE. And, that's never gonna happen!

[bamboo]

If I were you, I'd do the following:

1) Install win2000 or win XP as a second OS, keep win98SE for games/internet, whatever.
2) Install drivers (.29 work fine for me, although some ppl prefer 0.27)
3) Optimize the OS as per instructions @ http://www.musicxp.net/ and other similar sites
4) Enjoy your great DAW

[ljc]

"WDM drivers for 98SE will never happen because it does not have true WDM driver support and cannot provide the same performace 2000/XP can "


"it" being 98SE - and yes the performance is there for 98SE, and this comment clearly is talking about OS capability not cards. Oh and moskus I agree Audigy sucks, thats why I said "too bad their hardware doesn't stack up". The point was that they have a sophisticated front end compared to other cards. This is the reason for their popularity. It's common knowlege that the card is consumer grade.

[brzilian]

Taken directly from Microsofts website:

WDM Differences in Kernel-Mode Driver Operation. Kernel-mode WDM drivers for Windows 98/Me must follow certain guidelines for using floating-point operations, MMX, 3DNOW!, or Intel's SSE extensions.

Windows 98/Me provides a fixed number of worker threads that might not be adequate for some drivers. For more information about this and other Windows 98/Me-specific WDM issues, see "Cross-Platform Issues for WDM Drivers" in the current Windows DDK.



Later operating system releases support WDM features that were not available in earlier releases. For details about differences between WDM versions, see "Writing Drivers for Multiple Platforms and Operating Systems" in the Beta release of the Windows DDK to be released with Windows XP.

[moskus]

Long live Win2000/XP and WDM-drivers!


Actually, I'm more happy with ASIO...

[Still' Dreamin']

Originally posted by bamboo
If I were you, I'd do the following:

1) Install win2000 or win XP as a second OS, keep win98SE for games/internet, whatever......

This I did'nt know!

Hey Bamboo, can you direct me to a site or link were it can walk one thru doing this?

I liked to install Windows XP just for Sonar, but keep Win98SE as the main operating system. I already have XP ready to install, It's that I agree with Moskus..... I hate the look.

Can you help me out?

[James Argo]

Originally posted by Still' Dreamin'
I tried the ASIO's but I could'nt get rid of that pop/click at playback.

...That's also what I get when the first time I install my Delta-66. I need to stop (Spacebar), and re-play over and over to get rid of the pops / clicks on play back and recording. It's anoying indeed, but then I set SONAR's latency slider higher and higher, it's gone... just slide the latency slider up until they're gone away. The actual latency I get wasn't increased at all... Still tight and rocks.


Jaymz

[moskus]

Originally posted by Still' Dreamin'
Can you help me out?

I would use XP as the 'standard' OS too. Just turn of the blue-shiny-it'sextremelyfancy-interface.

Select the "Windows Classic"-theme in Display Properties (right-click on the desktop -> Properties), and use the Standard Start-menu (Start -> Settings -> Taskbar and Start Menu -> Start Menu -> Classic Start Menu"). Then you're ready to go!

[Still' Dreamin']

When I set Sonar to ASIO......the latency slider no longer works. It defaults to 'fast'. Also, the Sonar Wave Profiler button no longer exists. It is replaced by an ASIO panel button. Clicking that button brings up the Delta control panel. James, I tryed what you've suggested and it does'nt work for me. The click/pop continues.

James,

What is the DMA buffer size set to in your Delta control panel? And what is you I/O buffer size set to in Sonar's Audio menu?

[moskus]

Originally posted by Still' Dreamin'
When I set Sonar to ASIO......the latency slider no longer works. It defaults to 'fast'. Also, the Sonar Wave Profiler button no longer exists. It is replaced by an ASIO panel button. Clicking that button brings up the Delta control panel.

When using ASIO-drivers the Waveprofiler should be replaced by the ASIO Panel button and the Latency Slider is locked. That's because you set the latency samples in the Delta Control Panel. What happens if you set the latency to, say, 256 samples or 512 samples?

[James Argo]

Originally posted by Still' Dreamin'
When I set Sonar to ASIO......the latency slider no longer works. It defaults to 'fast'. Also, the Sonar Wave Profiler button no longer exists. It is replaced by an ASIO panel button. Clicking that button brings up the Delta control panel. James, I tryed what you've suggested and it does'nt work for me. The click/pop continues.

...Umh, sorry for the confusing info, I guess I got mine still there, because I put both '66 and SB Live! in a same machine. It works for the SB. And my I/O buffer size set to 100kb...

[Still' Dreamin']

Lowest latency is 336. Closest to 512 is 528. At 336 the click/pop stops but alot of static is introduced. Same for 528. Tryed Sonar I/O buffer at 100kb with no differance.....

[James Argo]

*OT mode on

...BTW, congrat on your 50th post. Junior Member & got an avatar...

*OT mode off


Jaymz

[Still' Dreamin']