Trusses were delivered today!

[Michael Jones]

They are big, and heavy (well sort of), and there's a lot of 'em!
I had a bad cold last weekend, so I didn't get ANY framing done. The weekend before that was cold, wet and rainy.
I'm behind my self imposed schedual on the framing, but, thats the way it goes I guess.
Hopefully we'll make substantial gains this weekend, and be ready for a roof in about 2 weeks!
I would REALLY like to have this place weathered in soon!
I'll post some more pics this weekend maybe.

[charoo]

hello michael

need some advice from you, can you suggest me some good link to make bass traps. I needed them urgently so i can start trating my walls.

luv
charoo

[Michael Jones]

Have you looked on John's SAE site?
I'm pretty sure he has more than one design on there.

[gatorhaus]

WE WANT PICS! WE WANT PICS! [chant]

Michael,

I know those damn self imposed deadlines they drive me crazy too. I get so out of sorts sometimes and don't know why, and its usually traced back to the deadlines that I place on myself, instead of enjoying the moment of what little progress I can make I am rush, rush, rush sometimes. Hang in there, I am very excited to see the pics.

GL,
larry

[John Sayers]

Yes Pics Michael we want to see the pic when you find you are one truss too short

Hey Charoo - settle down - I'm working on your place it's just that I'm in the rain like Michael and when you are on solar there's not much power

cheers
john

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by John Sayers
Yes Pics Michael we want to see the pic when you find you are one truss too short
Michael and when you are on solar there's not much power

cheers
john

Oh man! Don't even think that!
There's 29 scissor trusses, and 2 gabel ends, if I'm short, it's the manufacturer's fault. They had a set of plans to design and build from, so they're the ones that told me how many I need.
Now I need to find a contractor to put them up, and sheath and shingle it.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, sorry to hear about the cold. Its always something to foul up a schedule,
self imposed or not. Michael, did you engineer the truss's yourself? And did the engineering spec's have to be on your BID submittals? Just curious. So from what I understand of your plan, the underside of the truss's will be the ceiling for the tracking room, and the control room will have its own ceiling framed on top of the control room walls, is that correct? Trying to get the whole picture in my mind.
There for a while, I was under the impression your diffusers in the tracking room, were column enclosures and the columns were supporting beams across the room. Ha, don't know what gave me that impression. I think it was from macys plans. They always had column enclosures at the walls, so I probably just assumed thats what they were at the time. What did you say the span of the truss's is? I forgot.
Well good luck with the contractor. Theres a news series on TV here about all the fraudulant contractors in our county. Man, I can't believe how STUPID some of these people who hired them are. Like.....duh! One guy even left the roofing off the back side of an older couples house. Till the rain soaked the sheetrock and it caved in. They hadn't even bothered to look to see it! They assumed he did the whole job.
fitz

[Michael Jones]

Hi Rick.
Yeah, colds are a bitch. Seems like I get at least one every year. I ALWAYS get a flu shot, and that seems to help, but this year was particularly nasty. The whole family was sick last weekend. Not fun.

The company that builds the trusses engineer's them as well. They pretty much have to, if they're going to build them. One engineer isn't going to sign off on another engineer's design.

What you thought were column enclosures, are just fur-downs for electrical and HVAC ducts. I don't want to have any penetrations on the exterior walls. An electrical outlet is a big ole' hole! so I'd rather put that into a fur-down, and keep the exterior wall sealed off.

The span of the trusses is 29'-1". That comes from a foundation that is 30' wide, minus the 5-1/2" brick ledge on each side.
They'll be on 16" centers.

I wanted to use a vaulted or "scissor" truss because of the added height as well as the non-parallel-ism (is that a word?) that the scissor trusses provide.

If you took a section through the control room, with the scissor truss, it would be oddly asymetrical.
Rather than trying to design a series of trusses just for that part of the building, to regain symetry, I decided to basically build another ceiling for the control room. I came up with a 2x8 to top out the control room, but I may end up going with a wooden "I" beam there instead. They're lighter, stronger, and easier to manuver into place. All the control room ceiling has to do is support the layers of drywall attached to it. So, I'll end up with a void above the control room. That's OK. Good place for some hanging bass traps if need be.

The drawings and design for the trusses were not required at permit review, but will be required for inspections.
It's weird here for residential structures. You could walk in with a crayola drawing of what you wanted to do, and you'd get a permit, (as long as you had a site plan) but getting it to pass inspection and ultimately get a "certificate of occupancy" is where all your "real" drawings and designs come into play.

Seems like, around here anyway, that legitimate contractors don't ask for a dime until the work is complete.
Rest assured, I WILL look at it!

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Rest assured, I WILL look at it!

Hahahah! I bet you will. Every sq. inch. Thanks for the reply Michael I ask all these questions cause your studio is the first one I've seen documented from the ground up.
So thanks for keeping us informed. I am one who is curious about every detail! Not to mention nosy.
fitz

[Michael Jones]

One of my biggest concerns is how to vent the "attic" space.
You can vent through the eaves, but that doesn't work very well.
I'd like to use a ridge vent. I just wonder how that affects the STC of the roof.
I'm thinking, basically, the roof, sheathing and shingles would have an STC rating of next to nothing?
So, your only line of defense is the interior ceiling, and what ever insulation is above it.
definately the weakest point, Sound Transmission wise, of the whole structure.
Any ideas?
Anyone?

[John Sayers]

One of my biggest concerns is how to vent the "attic" space

vents on the gable ends? - Michael are you putting insulation under your roofing material?/ (You said shingles) I would run fibreglass over your battens before you put the roofing on. It cuts down rain noise considerably.

cheers
John

[Jeff_D]

Is STC of the roof realy a big concern- sound that penitrates it would be going up(down) right? Or are you worried about noise from outside coming in? Just curious- and yeah- we want pictures

[Transputer]

Hey Michael good to hear things are coming along. I've not used these boards myself but the warm roof designs look interesting. Don't think there is any STC data on the boards, well I looked ages back but didn't find anything. I've seen a lot of industrial steel roofing done with celotex double-R insulation, anyways here's the link http://www.celotex.co.uk/

Cheers

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Michael, well, you know I'm no expert at these things, but from what I understand, your STC is really the element with the weakest link. I don't know if the brick was for reducing transmission or aesthetics. Probably both But it would seem that your roof/ceiling will compromise any gains the brick may have given STC wise. So, the only thing I could think of is RC on the ceiling truss's, with 2 layers of sheetrock on the interior. On the roof, 2 layers of the heavyest felt available, AND 2 layers of shietheing, using a different thickness's, and overlapping joints, same as sheetrook. Since your using staggered studs, shiething and brick on the walls, I would try and bring up the ROOF?CEILING membrane to as close as STC as the walls, or you are wasting money on the brick for an STC rating, aesthetics aside.
But since the roof/ceiling is a complete assembly/membrane/leaf system, personally, I would go to the yahoo acoustics website, join, and holler for ERIC DESART, who is always glad to give the REAL stuff to members. He's an acoustition in europe, but really knows his shit. You can even post a file of the plan or sections. I would tell him about the wall, and your trying to meet the STC of the wall on the roof too! I'm sure he and others will tell you how correctly. Mine is just a guess.
And BTW Michael, how far are you away from neighbors. You know, the old inverse square law Maybe theres nothing to worry about the way you have it planned?
Or do you have a noisy environment. Didn't look like it from the pics. Well, good luck with the roof stc.
fitz

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by John Sayers
vents on the gable ends? - Michael are you putting insulation under your roofing material?/ (You said shingles) I would run fibreglass over your battens before you put the roofing on. It cuts down rain noise considerably.

cheers
John

You're loosing me John.... battens?
On the exterior roof there will be 3/4" sheathing. (Flake Board)
over that is a layer of roofing felt. Over that are the asphalt/composition singles. Pretty standard here. Nothing too special.
I don't want to vent the gable ends because with the vaulted interior ceiling, there's not that much room. That's why I was thinking of a ridge vent. Its a vent that runs along the top of the roof.
Now, on the inside, in the attic, between the trusses, just under the sheathing for the shingles, I was going to put that 3/4" pink styrofoam.
Then, on the bottom of the "attic", between the trusses, I was going to use R39 fiberglass insulation.
Then 2 layers of sheetrock.

Rick - The brick exterior is mainly for asthetics, and to match the architecture of the main house. I want this building to look like it belongs there, and not like a shop someone decided to add-on.
Any added benefit of STC due to the brick exterior, is really coincidental. It seems to me like, if you drill the required "weep holes" at the bottom layer of bricks, that would negate any STC value of the bricks anyway.

Kremit - I'm not too worried about keeping sound in, it's keeping outside sounds out. Although, I'm not too sure there's much of a difference between the two.
Sound travels up, out, and away, right? So whether there's a "hole" in the side or top of a building, it doesn't matter. Does it?

Before I started ANY plans for this project, I rented this "measurement microphone" and I went out and ummm.... sampled? the existing noise/ambience conditions at regular intervals, over a period of time on the site.
I don't recall the numbers off the top of my head, I'd have to go back and look at the graphs, but it seems like I had peaks at around 65db, I think. We all have large lots out there, 1/2 acre plus, but both of my neighbors have dogs. And they bark!

[Jeff_D]

sound is a wave and it travels in a linear fashion- newton- says objections in motion tend to travel in the same direction until some outside force changes that- outside force would be a reflective surface- everything reflects sound to some extent but it seems like the walls would be more important for keeping sound out than the roof- educated guess? since most of your outside noise will be coming from approx ground level i assume (dogs barking, traffic etc.) Im asking more questions with my answer again- damn i gotta quit that

[Michael Jones]

Sound IS a wave, and it does travel in a linear fashion, but it doesn't radiate one dimensonally.
Sound, being a wave, is, I believe, better thought of as a pressure wave. Any opening or hole in a room will allow that pressure to enter the room.
Think of a ballon. If it had a tiny hole in it, it would never hold air, regardless of how "thick" the ballon walls were.

Again, many questions arise......

[Jeff_D]

didnt mean to imply that a wave travels in one dimensionally- obviously your right- it radiates from the source- the source is on the ground with MOST of the wave radiating toward your wall (unless there is an external noise source above your building that we dont know about) not to say the reflected sound wave couldnt penetrate your roof- but it seems to me that most of the high SPL's would be directed at the walls- hopefully someone can prove me wrong or right- its an interesting discussion as always mike- if you still have that db meter i would be interested in the results of ambient noise in your finished space- i heard that less than 10db of ambient noise is downright uncomfortable and has been used in torture experiments to drive people MAD.

-jeff

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Ok, I give, I have to punch in my 2 cents Michael
It is an interesting point in the construction phase. To me, the brick wall is a floating mass, The brick will absorb? low frequency and reflect high frequency? Regardless, it will impede direct sound. But sound will defract up and over, which when occurs, has a membrane(trussed roof/interior shell)in the path of defraction. Is that correct?

If so, the trussed roo/membrane load will act as a dampener for the INTERIOR STAGGERED STUD walls, as the load is distributed to the interior long walls. Correct? Would it be safe to say structural transmission of exterior as WELL as interior sound could be distributed as well. The brick is a floating mass in front of interior walls with penetrations throuh the brick for doors. Is that right Michael. ? Then the interior shell is directly coupled via the trusses to an exterior shell. Is that a fair assumption?

If so, since the roof truss/membrane has its OWN resonant frequency, as well as structurally transmitting exterior noise directly to the interior ceiling shiething, wouldn't it be logical to de-couple the interior shell ceiling from the structural elements? Or is this what John is talking about furring? Perpendicular to the trusses? Would it act as Resiliant Channel? or does resiliant channel get fastened to the furring? The interior shell walls are already de-coupled by staggering studs. Wouldn't treating the ceiling in a similar fashion be adventageous, to keep the STC of the ceiling in line with the walls?

Sorry Michael, these questions are the only way I have of contributing.
But it also seems that in order to bring up the STC of the whole building.........wait a minute, Michael, you did plan the exterior shell to reach a certain STC? Isn't that what this is about? Hmmm....beg your pardon. You've already taken this into account. OOPS! Excues me. I'm done BTW, what was your target STC Michael? Did I miss something?
fitz

[Michael Jones]

kremit - thats very interesting. I have been in very quiet places, and the lack of noise is deafening! Odd, but very true.
I guess what I was trying to get at in this discussion is that if you vent an attic (which you have to by code) that you'll loose any STC rating of the roof.
So, it stands to reason then, that your true STC rating would come solely from the way you constructed your interior ceiling.
I don't have the measurement mic and meter any more. I rented it.

I started off trying to use this little hand held sound level meter, but going outside every 10 minutes to take and record measurements, got old fast. So I rented a real one that you just set up, and it records data to like an "E-PROM" chip, then you just download the data and import it into a spread sheet where you can graph it. It was expensive, so I only did it for a couple of days, and I chose to do it on the weekend when I expected activity to be at its highest.

Rick - I'm with you on the first 2 paragraphs. Those all seem like good assumptions. You can however ATTEMPT to de-couple the wall from the trusses by resting the trusses on a pad of rubber.
Obviously complete isolation is not possible, and you certianly wouldn't want to sacrifice structural integrity for isolation, but I think doing that would achieve fairly good results.

Resiliant channel on the ceiling. Sounds like a good way to isolate the ceiling, but man, you know how hard it would be to screw drywall into an RC - on the ceiling. I dunno. Sounds tough to me. I'm sure with enough tenacity....

I was hoping mass, dead air space, and insulation would yeild acceptable results.
Remember, we're talking about the live room, the vocal room, and to some extent, the drum room. The Control Room, will truly be a room within a room and have only the floor in common to the rest of the structure. The fill under the slab in the vicinity of the control room is three and a half feet thick too!

I did plan the walls to have a certain STC: brick, air, sheathing, staggered studs, insulation, flake board and 2 layers of sheetrock, puts it somewhere in the upper 40's to low 50's.

So how do you achieve that in the ceiling?
Well, that's sort of what this discussion is all about!

On another note, if my ambient outside noise is peaking at 65db, and I build a structure with an STC rating of, let's say 50, does that mean, in theory of course, that the internal ambient noise of the structure will be at around 15db??

Thanks, everyone for all of your insightful comments.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

How close are the dogs? I guess it all revolves around that pretty much. As to the resiliant channel, I would use type 2 and tenacious tolerance control. Thats what they do in the mill. It amazes me what the guys do to hold tolerances and build things correctly. I've seen them build jigs 30' long and 15' wide on the floor for custom machining 3/4" mdf parts for ELIPSE shape showcase lines and backislands. What a jig that was. WAAAAAAAY before CNC. Old world problem solving, to make a custom machine for 5 hp routers to cut the parts in tolerances of 1/32" in 30'! Glad it wasn't me. I just had to detail(draft) them and the parts.

Or the jig they built to machine a 6' replica of a GOLFBALL. Out of mdf. Man, can those guys build. One guy especially, whom everyone refers to as the JIGMASTER. He has been a millworker for 55 yrs. Talk about craftsmanship, whew!!! You name it, and he's built it. Even furniture for a KING!

Anyway, it was a thought, and only you know your actual conditions there, and what you can do. Keep us informed though. I'm always interested in your progress Michael.

You are going to have a killer studio when done. Hey, what species are you using for your various millwork? Jams, doors, console, baseboard etc. Anything in particular? Or are you painting most everything? I know hardwoods are EXPENSIVE, but so is a Fender Precision Bass And when push comes to shove, sometimes , something has to give somewhere!

[Michael Jones]

I really want to build some of John's varible diffuser/absorbers!
For the frame for those, I'll probably just use pine, but for the finished work, and exposed wood I'm going to use Birch.
So, it would be nice if the millwork matched those.
But to buy hardwood millwork is insanely expensive!

However, my dad, who is as passionate about woodworking as we are about recording, has a really nice woodworking shop. And he lives about 30 miles from me. I mean he has every imaginable woodworking tool in there, from planers, to joiners, jig and band saws, radial arm saws, router tables, you name it. He even has millwork cutters. So, I'm thinking I'll just buy the bulk stock Birch, cut it to size and mill it there.

I really, REALLY like the color scheme that was done at Joe Egan's studio (on John's site) so, I'm going to canabalize some of the ideas from there.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

So, I'm thinking I'll just buy the bulk stock Birch, cut it tosize and mill it there

Hi Michael, say, do you have solid stock Birch available there? Out here, for years, solid Birch was a no no price wise, and availability wise. Panels are abundantly available, but not solid. We have always substituted Alder for solid Birch, as it finishes out very close to Birch.
Anymore though, ANY hardwoods ARE becoming prohibitively expensive for the average person. If you saw the amount and types of hardwoods we go through for Macys, it would astound you. They buy complete FLITCHS in New York, and when we order the veneered panels or solid stock, it must be cut from those FLITCHS. On really rare species, we use a computer CAM program, that figures out every piece to be cut from panels, so we know we won't run out. Some of these panels are VERY long. Up to 18' for column enclosures. Custom made panels and veneered. EXPENSIVE is an understatement. Slicing a veneer 18' long is not something they do everyday. First you have to have the flitch. And a machine to handle that size. The old supply and demand routine. If macys is remodeling 5 stores, chances are, there are 5 fixture contractors such as I work for, all ordering material from the same flitch's, Talk about a mad dash to get it first!! Macys does not allow substitution. And species such as gaboon or bubinga are not readily available if you run out. Ha! Try to even find them.

BTW Michael, does your dad or yourself do any veneer work. The reason I ask is I collect veneer cut offs and have a TON of short pieces about 4' x 4' and less. Good for small projects. I've got all kinds of species. If your interested in some, I'd be glad to ship you a few no charge except for shipping. I do a lot of crafts work, like little chests and box's etc. Let me know if your interested.
fitz

[Michael Jones]

Last time I looked Home Depot was carrying dimension lumber in Birch. 1x4, 1x6 and 1x8 up to 10 feet long.
But if not them, there's a couple of places in town, specialty lumber yards, that do carry it for sure, as well as a ton of exotic species.

Have never tried to do anything in veneer.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

BTW Michael, heres a hint for using panels as hardwood pieces. Since hardwoods are so expensive, unless the piece we are machining has a machined profile, almost all of our work is produced from veneered sheet goods. DOOR JAMBS, BASE, EVEN DOORS.
In order to save money, we use special joint machining such as lock miters, edgebanding with solid stock and veneers, and splining panels and solid stock togeather. Any thing that is a flat profile such as your wall base, can be cut from panels and edgebanded. Usually you can purchase veneer in common species in a roll that has a heat applied adhesive on the rear face. Especially birch. Simply use a household iron and iron it on the edge. Since the panels are usually 8' to 10' long, carfull consideration of length demands and end joint conditions determine such decisions. Once finished and installed though, who knows the difference? Ha!
fitz