vocal harmony question

[cjx]

hi! I know its been awhile since I've been here, but I think some of you may be able to help. I'm in a band and I just wrote a new song complete with vocals. I know what the vocal harmonies should be, but our singer/guitar player can't handle the higher notes as well (his voice cracks and wont stay on the note). I''ve heard that if you tune up, the vocal harmony pithces will collectively drop. Is this true? I mean, he's really close to what it has to be. So I figure if I tune a half step up this should help, right? Thanks!

[64Firebird]

Maybe he could just sing a lower part in the harmony. If he's singing the 7th now, have him sing the 5th or the 3rd. The most important notes in a chord are the 3rd and 7th. The 5th is really unnecessary. The tonic helps a little, but it's not needed.

[PFDarkside]

I've never heard that... and I'm not sure how that would work. BUT...

If you tune down it will. Example: You are tuned to E (standard) and the high vocal harmony is a G. He can't quite hit that note. Now, if you tune down to D, yet still "play" in the same key, all the pitches drop a whole step. Now, he physically has to sing an F, but the guitar/bass still play as if the song is in it's original key.

Also, tuning down, even a half step gives a slightly darker, heavier sound.

As far as harmony goes, the 5th can be important too, if you are looking for a more forboding sound. A lot of Alice in Chains' harmonies are 5ths and 4ths, which gives them a more open sound compared to 3rds.

[64Firebird]

Originally posted by PFDarkside
As far as harmony goes, the 5th can be important too, if you are looking for a more forboding sound. A lot of Alice in Chains' harmonies are 5ths and 4ths, which gives them a more open sound compared to 3rds.

The 5th is the least needed note in harmony, if you don't believe me go and ask your music theory teacher. If you want a foreboding sound try a miner 3rd.

[Stealthtech]

Originally posted by 64Firebird
The 5th is the least needed note in harmony, if you don't believe me go and ask your music theory teacher. If you want a foreboding sound try a miner 3rd.

Firebird, I sent you a PM

[64Firebird]

Originally posted by Stealthtech
Firebird, I sent you a PM

Got it, back at you.

[Aaron Cheney]

Oooohhh - gotta agree with Firebird here. Thirds are the most important voice in the harmony by far, and fifths are way down on the list. Furthermore, you certainly don't want fifths paralleling the melody line - that breaks all kinds of rules and sounds really boring. Putting in a fifth works best on the last note in a melody line, to reinforce the move back to the home chord, but during the melody you really need thirds and sevenths to establish movement.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

[Cyrokk]

Unless of course, you are doing Gregorian chants. Those are purely fifth intervals.

[typi]

WOW! You guys are makin' this WAY TOO COMPLICATED!

The most common thing to do when a part is out of the vocalist's
range is to change the key of the tune so that the vocal part in question falls into the vocalist's RANGE, if you like the way the melody and harmony lines are written. (This would be the equivalent of detuning guitars, bass, etc. This isn't always very practical IMHO.
When you start arranging/orchestrating for other instruments, you can't always say to the horn players, for example, 'Hey, can youse guys DETUNE a step or 2?', unless they can transpose to any key on sight, or really play anything completely by ear, which ain't always gonna be possible. Usually better to actually PLAY the tune in the new key, although this can change the'color', 'mood', 'feel', etc.)

If this is not practical for whatever reason, THEN you may have to
rewrite the vocal part or parts in question to be lower in that vocalist's range.

[64Firebird]

Changing the key might be good, but it won't always work. If you change the key you'll change the feeling of the whole song. A good example of this is all those old horror movie sound tracks with all the creepy music played in D minor. Play that stuff in another key and it just doesn't sound the same. D minor is just a creepy sounding key.

[AlChuck]

Ack! I can't take it any more!

It's minor !!!!!

... not miner -- MINOR !!!!!!

A miner works in a mine... A minor is the relative minor of C major, and as far as I know none of its relatives were ever anywhere near a mine...

[Dioxide]

WOW! You guys are makin' this WAY TOO COMPLICATED!

The most common thing to do when a part is out of the vocalist's
range is to change the key of the tune so that the vocal part in question falls into the vocalist's RANGE, if you like the way the melody and harmony lines are written. (This would be the equivalent of detuning guitars, bass, etc. This isn't always very practical IMHO.
When you start arranging/orchestrating for other instruments, you can't always say to the horn players, for example, 'Hey, can youse guys DETUNE a step or 2?', unless they can transpose to any key on sight, or really play anything completely by ear, which ain't always gonna be possible. Usually better to actually PLAY the tune in the new key, although this can change the'color', 'mood', 'feel', etc.)

If this is not practical for whatever reason, THEN you may have to
rewrite the vocal part or parts in question to be lower in that vocalist's range.

I don't really believe that this guy is conducting an orchestra I'ts probably rock or metal which makes it a bit easier to detune if desired. I am the singer/guitarist in my band and we used to play in drop for C for a while (yeah it's a bit low). But I do alot of vocal fluctuations (IE Tool) and screaming (IE Deftones)but I just wasn't able to sqeeze out the parts as well. I suggested we tune half a step up and I'm able to catch my parts just right. So who says tunig up or down can't help. Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

[PFDarkside]

Originally posted by 64Firebird
The 5th is the least needed note in harmony, if you don't believe me go and ask your music theory teacher. If you want a foreboding sound try a miner 3rd.

I'm not saying that theoretically speaking, the third and seventh aren't more important. I'm just saying that if you are playing/writing in a style that doesn't have to follow rules of music theory (i.e. rock/metal) then one should try out 5ths, 4ths and octaves.

You'll say that octaves are not important at all, yet listen to Pink Floyd - Welcome to the Machine. The feel would be totally different if the harmonies were thirds instead of octaves.

[Aaron Cheney]

Agreed.

I guess we're talking two different things here: arrangement note choices and production choices.

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

[typi]

Diox,

I'm with ya-----certainly not tryin' to knock it! I just try to keep it
as simple for my own sometimes feeble and often confused brain as possible. Detuning can sure work and I've done it also------droppin' the strings a whole step is the same thing as changing the key down a whole step. Guess I've been working with the same singers for some time, so I know what their comfortable vocal ranges are and what upper notes to avoid.