Guitar Synth's.... Worth The Money or Total Crap?

[Buck62]

What do you guys think of guitar synthesizer systems like the Roland GR-33?

I've heard many opinions from "complete garbage" to "WOW!"

Are they worth the money (approximately $700)????

Can they keep up in "real time" when playing a fast riff?

Do they sound real or fake when doing piano, organ, strings, and horns?

What are the pros and cons?

Please comment if you have a significant amount of experience with these things... thanx!

[Aaron Cheney]

I wouldn't say I have "significant experience", but I've played several and have yet to find anything I would want to own. For my money I would rather buy a nice keyboard and keep my guitars in the analog world.
I have been hearing nice things about that new Line6 guitar though....

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

[64Firebird]

A long time ago Casio made one that rocked. It would sound like anything you wanted it to but you got to keep all the subtle stuff that guitars are best at like string bending. I wish I had bought one.

[c7sus]

I've been looking at these since they came out. Seems so cool. In practice I think it's quite difficult to really get a tight sound from MIDI guitar.

You have to play cleanly. The pitch<MIDI converters get pretty sloppy with a lot of string bending. As far as speed, I don't think there is too much delay in the mid-to-high frequencies. I know the first generations had a lot of problems tracking low E strings. So latency may still be a factor.

Garcia used the first and second generation Roland converters and a U-220 live for years.

From what I understand, you must use a Roland Guitar Synth as well with the pickup, because the synth has the pitch<MIDI hardware in it......... but it's MIDI so you should be able to put any sampler or anything else as your sound source.

Axion(?) is another company doing guitar MIDI stuff. There used to be a company selling fiber-optic based P<M converters. I don't know if they are still around.

[clifchamb]

I know this is a little off subject but I tired the ROLAND bass synth and was very dissapointed since it seemed to be a glorfied effects pedal, not even as half cool as the guitar synth (i.e no piano patches horn patches etc)

I think the guitar synths are really cool. I have heard great recording with great tracking on them. They key is are you the type of player that would use them? If you cannot play a keyboard it might be worth it. My brother who is a great guitar player bought one and then sold it becuase he was not creative enough to take full advantage of it. That brings up another poitn. I see these things used all the time. Try to buy it that way (don't forget the pickup!)


clif

[64Firebird]

I did a little looking around and the one I was talking about was the Casio MG 510. Not only was it a really synth guitar, but it was a rocking guitar on it's own.

[AlChuck]

That's Axon that c7sus was referring to...

[JR#97]

All I want to do is get the MIDI info into my sequencer. I don't need a sound module and Im not trying to emulate the guitar in the MIDI world with bends and shit. Is there an easy/less expensive route than a full blown guitar synth system?

[Aaron Cheney]

Ya, I too remember the Casio as being much better at tracking notes than some of the Roland offerings. I played one quite a bit back in the day, when I managed a music store. The store bought two of them, and they were both nice guitars.
Still they were so fussy, and we were constantly tweaking them for correct performance. I guess I just prefer the simplicity of 1 big 1/4 inch jack and that's it: true plug 'n' play!

Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com

[teknomike]

I suppose I have probably had significant "experience" with a guitar synth, however, it is not broad.
I have had a Roland GR-50 since 1993, and I really enjoy it. It is not for everybody, and you have to expect some compromise between it and a keyboard synth.
Tracking can be the biggest issue. I always had problems with my GK-2A, and its mounting on my guitars. I had it permanently mounted on a BC Rich, but it was still temperamental. I found the string spacing was not correct for the hex pickup.
I had the unit in storage for 4 years while in Tokyo, then upon my return I pulled it out and started playing with it again. Again, I was not happy with the GK-2 and did NOT want to mount it permanently on my Tele, so when I found a used Godin LGX-SA, I bought it.
Best thing I ever did - now, the only thing that bugs me is my technique. I really notice it when I'm sloppy. There is also latency due to sampling, but if it gets too bad, I can slide it over in the mix. God, I love software.
Sounds, well, it all depends what you are looking for. You can use the GR-50 to trigger via MIDI anything you want, so the sky's the limit. If you're comfortable with the guitar, rather than the keyboard (like me), it's a great MIDI controller. I find the guitar much better for controlling patches like wind instruments and strings , you can better approximate the instrument.
It will track a fast riff, but only if you are VERY clean - if you mess up, you'll get squeaks and squawks and all sorts of weird shit.
I saw Pat Metheny playing a GR-50 back in 92, he was using his Ibanez, with a built in hex pickup. He was controlling that thing like nobody's business, so it can be done. You just gotta work at it. Personally, I would not particularily want to play it live.
I would say I'm between both your comments - it's a great tool for me, I do use it, but it does have some limitations.
The GR-50 is a great box, though - used, you probably won't find a better deal. Single space rack mount. Just wish I had more time to play with it though.
Hope I gave you an idea, anyway.
Cheers,
Mike

[mixmkr]

I've got a Roland GR-33 and like it pretty much. It isn't the end all of gtr synths, but it IS pretty cool. I mounted the pickup on a Gibson L6s and found it to be ok. I played a Strat with the pickup factory installed in the store, and it seemed significantly better. I therefore bough a MIM strat to mount my pickup and it is better than the Gibson. The strat seems to be ONE of the guitars in which the GK2A pickup is best suited for...because the pickup gets REALLY close to the strings...so it needs to be near the bridge, and the string spacing seems to match up good on the Strat too. As far as the sounds, like mentioned, once you go into the GR-33, you can MIDI out to anything. The GR-33 itself is fairly decent, but doesn't have ALL the sonic stuff in a good full blown synth like a larger XP or XV series synth...especially with the expansion cards. But the sounds are ok. BUT, the factory patches are mostly pretty lame, but it is EASY to get some patches on your own that sound really cool. I found the timing/latency on the low E on bass patches to be verging on problematic...but otherwise the rest is ok. A work around is to just transpose your patch down and octave and play it an octave higher on your guitar, for example. And yes...you do need to play clean, and stuff like laying your hand across the strings like you might be used to, to silence your guitar, may trigger a "wild" note instead with the synth. Play clean, learn it's idiosyncricies, and you're in like Flynn. It will track as fast as you can whip out a CLEAN lead, I will guarentee that. The GR-33 itself is plastic, but seems fine for home use, for sure. On a gig, I'd want a backup if it were a necessity on the gig, and it was an "important" gig. As far as getting "realistic sounds"...like pianos and trumpets..etc.. sure, you can get close aproximations, and especially great mixed in with a band. I think the secret is keeping in mind the instrument you might be trying to mimic, and don't phrase your guitar passages, and expect the nuances to come out like a trumpet. Play on your guitar how you think a piano might be voiced, and your results will be much better. I especially like it for solo instruments like violens and cellos, in which they more resemble a guitar. Also stuff like flutes , pan flutes, etc come off pretty good. I also thought saxes and horns worked fairly well also. And..it is weird to hear a B3 like sound come out of your guitar....even drums.

so...would I suggest to buy it...? If $700 bucks isn't too much for your budget and you want to expand your sounds, and you suck at keyboard. If you are a small band, it can be FANTASTIC. I've used it in church settings using string patches, chimes, etc...and it is incredible. Also for bass guitars, so I am not switching instruments. I've got some other synths, so being able to play some of my favorite patches via my guitar has been great. It is a coooool toy, for sure. Perfect..? no... but I'd say go for it... or at least try one at a store first...realizing the factory stuff is kinda lame. Oh..the GR-33 can easily be learned, top to bottom in an evening. None of this mumbo-jumbo roland manual stuff. the GR-33 is NOT that deep, and the manual is actually pretty decent.

remember, you want it to sound like a trumpet...play your guitar licks with the dynamics that a trumpet player might use. The sounds themselves in the unit have the potential to sound as good as any of the JV series Rolands. Just like playing a sax section on a keyboard...you gotta phrase it right to come of sounding somewhat like a real sax section.

And...if you are NOT emulating stuff, but want new, wild, trippy, synth stuff coming from your guitar...it is GREAT!!

[Buck62]

Okay, so far this has been enlightening..... Thanx!

Now, how easy would it be for a non-MIDI guy like myself to learn? I have NO CLUE whatsoever about doing MIDI patching and whatnot... and I HATE getting buried in instruction manuals, or WORSE... having to get a freakin' video to teach me how to operate something. That's one of the reasons I'll NEVER get a Roland digital recorder, because of the learning curve and the confusing manual.

So, would I be able to learn how to use a GR-33 rather easily?
Or, will this be a lesson in frustration?

I know I should take the time to read manuals and all, but with the wife and me both working full-time on staggered shifts, and having a 21-month-old to take care of, I just don't have the time to sit around and read an instruction manual. Any free time I have would need to be dedicated solely to playing and recording, not being frustrated by technical goble-dee-gook. I'm fairy good with figuring things out (read: I am not retarded ) so would I be able to get one of these things up and running right away?

[Buck62]

Oh, and are there any of these systems that are not required to hook up to another source for other instrument sounds?

I mean, is there something that converts guitar to piano, organ, horns, etc. all by itself in a self-contained, stand alone unit?

[mikeh]

I used a GR-09 for a few years. I used it mostly to get better phrasing on banjo sounds (than I could get playing a keyboard). I also used it to get more authentic slides on things like steel guitar sounds, violin and trombone sounds (again better then keyboard tehnique could achieve).

However I have pretty decent keyboard chops so I did not need a guitar to lay down organ sounds, etc.

My personnal opinion is - develop some keyboard chops. Use a keyboard to get keyboard sound and a guitar to get guitar sounds. (unless there are specific technique issues that a guitar synth can achieve - better than a keyboard)

As a general rule a keyboard will give you better and more user friendly MIDI application.

So, I don't think guitar synth are a bad thing - but don't try to use them to take the play of a keyboard.

[mixmkr]

Originally posted by Buck62
Okay, so far this has been enlightening..... Thanx!

Now, how easy would it be for a non-MIDI guy like myself to learn? I have NO CLUE whatsoever about doing MIDI patching and whatnot... and I HATE getting buried in instruction manuals, or WORSE... having to get a freakin' video to teach me how to operate something. That's one of the reasons I'll NEVER get a Roland digital recorder, because of the learning curve and the confusing manual.

So, would I be able to learn how to use a GR-33 rather easily?
Or, will this be a lesson in frustration?
.............

I guess you didn't read my fucking post, just up a couple....actually right above this one I quoted.

so....enlightened by responses from people who never owned one (GR-33)..

scuze me...I had a terrible day, and your post was convienent.

Glad I could help out.

[mixmkr]

Originally posted by Buck62
Oh, and are there any of these systems that are not required to hook up to another source for other instrument sounds?

I mean, is there something that converts guitar to piano, organ, horns, etc. all by itself in a self-contained, stand alone unit?

yes...the GR-33 (with the GK-2A pickup)

[Buck62]

I did read your post.
I'll even re-read it!

I came across the Korg X-911 that supposedly gets decent horn and organ sounds just by plugging directly into it, without the need for a special pickup or any other source. But this unit is old and the info about it is scarce.
I also checked out the Axon unit that was metioned. There seems to be a high learning-curve and the reviews were terrible at Harmony Central.

I'm just trying to keep this as simple as possible, that's all.
As soon as someone mentions "MIDI" I get completely lost.
Maybe that's because I'm "old school" and anything that seems electronically complicated scares me.

....or maybe I'm just retarded after all.

Anyway.... So you either buy a cheap guitar to use with the GK-2A pickup (to avoid drilling into one of your "good" guitars) or just go out and buy one that's already set up for the guitar-synth units (Godin LGX-SA or Roland-ready Strat).
It seems like I'm looking at a cost of nearly $1,000+ here.

Why are those Roland units so high in price, anyway?
I'll bet it doesn't cost more than a hundred bucks to manufacture each unit. That's quite a mark-up!
If the whole packge cost less than $400, this wouldn't be such a tough decision to make.

I'm going to hit Guitar Satan and check this stuff out.
I'd have to be MIGHTY impressed to drop the big $$ for a GR-33 and the extras involved. If it's as good as some people claim, I'll use it live on my open-jam nights as well as tracking.

[mixmkr]

Originally posted by Buck62
I'm going to hit Guitar Satan and check this stuff out.
I'd have to be MIGHTY impressed to drop the big $$ for a GR-33 and the extras involved. If it's as good as some people claim, I'll use it live on my open-jam nights as well as tracking.

there ya go. sorry about my previous harshness(post). With this unit, or any other unit, don't let the MIDI scare you off. It isn't all that complicated... just plug a cable in...etc. I'm probably just as old as you are, if not more

btw, the unit is REALLY only about $600. ...if you have a pickup (like say for the VG8 system...or something else.)

Also, the pickups can be installed with two sided sticky tape (not really recommended for gig use...but I've done it), and the strap button on your guitar without drilling holes. I haven't yet drilled a hole in any guitar yet for the pickup.

Also, the synth engine in the GR-33 is probably equivalent to a $500 synth...or more. Unfortunately, you can't stick their expansion cards in it. That would be great. But,...hence the price.
I think they (kinda) consider the pickup as an extra to the guitar synth, since they have other products that use the same pickup.

Remember, guitar synths of yore cost easily about twice the price of this setup. So comparitively, it is inexpensive.

[mixmkr]

and... you also have to take into consideration, this is another beast. Most likely you'll love it, or not be all that impressed. Potentially the same reactions die hard guitar players even have with synthesizers in general. It is NOT perfect, but the best system FOR THE PRICE out there nowadays....and I've pretty much been following guitar synths since ARP made its first one back in the 70's.

[Lopp]

Further to mixmkr's helpful advice,

Originally posted by Buck62
I came across the Korg X-911 that supposedly gets decent horn and organ sounds just by plugging directly into it, without the need for a special pickup or any other source. But this unit is old and the info about it is scarce.

Usually these units are terrible for tracking. You have to play ULTRA clean (and you still often get synth-farts). Also, you can only play single not lines, not chords.

Anyway.... So you either buy a cheap guitar to use with the GK-2A pickup (to avoid drilling into one of your "good" guitars) or just go out and buy one that's already set up for the guitar-synth units (Godin LGX-SA or Roland-ready Strat).
It seems like I'm looking at a cost of nearly $1,000+ here.

Yeah. The synth-ready Strat is the easiest, but more expensive way to go. I've drooled over and played the GR-33 many times in the shop. The only thing that held me back was the price. Along with the fact that I do alright programming my synth sounds and already have the JV-1080 which has the same sounds.

Why are those Roland units so high in price, anyway?
I'll bet it doesn't cost more than a hundred bucks to manufacture each unit. That's quite a mark-up!

Capitalism.

If the whole packge cost less than $400, this wouldn't be such a tough decision to make.

No doubt!

[mikeh]

I agree that the Strat design seems to work better with a GK2A pick-up. However, if you are useing the guitar to program with (vs. a live application which requires switching from synth sounds to guitar sounds) just get a cheap Strat copy (Squire, Charvel, and 1/2 dozen other cheap Strat designs) which can be had for $150-$200 - maybe less used.

Regarding why the GR33 costs so much - yes Capitalism is the correct answer! However, the R & D that goes into designing some of this technology is very costly. As soon as a unit is on the market someone will reverse design it or it will become obsolete for whatever reason - so Roland (or Yamaha, etc) need to recoup that R & D cost much faster.

Thats why technology related gear costs so much and why things like low cost drums and guitars don't cost that much - the drums and guitars don't require R & D.

[Prizmaxic]

Originally posted by Buck62
Guitar Synth's.... Worth The Money or Total Crap?

My vote is for "Total Crap"

[Toki987]

Originally posted by 64Firebird
A long time ago Casio made one that rocked. It would sound like anything you wanted it to but you got to keep all the subtle stuff that guitars are best at like string bending. I wish I had bought one.

I worked with a guitar player that had the Casio. It was a black Strat. It wailed as a guitar. The synth setup tracked really well, but some of the stock midi patches weren`t that good, a tx81z module was a good fix for that. The batteries had to be changed after about 8 to 10 hrs.

[dtb]

I have a GR30 and the pick-up on a MIM strat. I enjoy playing with it every now and then. Works great. Some cool sounds. But I'm am acoustic guy, so the synth doesn't get the play it should. But I only paid 250.00 for the box and the pick-up, I already had the strat, so I'm not out of much while it sits there.

[Buck62]

Originally posted by dtb
I have a GR30 and the pick-up on a MIM strat. I enjoy playing with it every now and then. Works great. Some cool sounds. But I'm am acoustic guy, so the synth doesn't get the play it should. But I only paid 250.00 for the box and the pick-up, I already had the strat, so I'm not out of much while it sits there.

Interested in selling it?