Building DAW from the ground up... Suggestions?

[bwalker]

Great site, great BBS. Thanks for all the free education. I am preparing to build a PC based DAW. (I am unfamiliar w/Macs so I would prefer to stay away from them). The PC I have at home was built around the same time the Nina, Pinta and Santa Maria sailed, so I need to get a new system. Fortunately, I know just a little less about PC's and their construction than my eight month old son, so I won't need any help there. I do think I know enough that I should get a P4 w/ at least a gig of ram. As far as other gear, all I have is an ESP Traditional, (a damn fine strat copy), a Crate VC5212, (a small tube combo amp), a Washburn dreadnought and my VOX, ( the sound that comes out when compressed air passes through my vocal chords). I was looking at a digi 002 as a control surface/ audio card/ mixer, which comes with Pro tools LE. Beside those two items I thought about Tannoy near field moniters and at least a Shure SM-57. So, any words of wisdom from all of you recording gurus out there would be much appreciated. Does this look like a good initial set-up? Is it too much for a beginner? Is there something else I should think about? (No snide remarks). Should I scrap the whole thing and buy my wife a new house, so she doesn't divorce me in a "you-bought-what?!!" induced rage? Any advice would be helpful.

[Stealthtech]

Sounds like enough to get you started.
Build your own system to save some money.
My suggestions:

Full tower ATX case {400watt PS}
Asus motherboard
Intel p4, perhaps a 2.4 gig so you dont spend a fortune on the latest chip.
2 Hard drives{one for audio}40-80 gig {WD with the 8mb buffer is nice and fast}
512-1gig of Ram {Kingston, Crucial or Micron}
Plextor or Yamaha CDRW
Extra case fans
Hard drive cooler fans

Software fro recording is a hard choice.
I dont prefer Pro-tools
I would go with M-audio Delta series interfaces.

[bwalker]

Thanx Stealthtech... anybody else w/ thoughts about which software is best? Perhaps it has to do w/ whether you have a musical or technological background? Anybody have any thoughts about integrated control surfaces like the digi002? Do they make things better or worse? Considering the price tag of most of this stuff I don't want something overpriced and under-performing. Neither do I want something relatively cheap, (but still expensive), that doesn't work the way I want it to. (Somehow I think I have just stated the crucial dilemma for home recording enthusiasts). All points of view appreciated!

[stonepiano]

you're asking for a can of worms with an appeal for opinions but I'll throw mine at you.

I think I would personally try an Aardvark Q10 with Cubase or Sonar before getting into the Digi002 world. That's just me.

Stone

[Michael Jones]

Stealthtech put together a really good system for you; I would concur with what he said but I would add 2 100gig HD's as a 40 gig HD isn't going to get you very far. Go for a gig of ram too, it's cheap enough to do so. Make sure your HD's are at LEAST 7200 rpm, or splurge and get a SCSI drive that runs at 10,000 rpm. SCSI drives are going to cost a LOT more though. I run 2 7200 rpm drives with no problems. Somewhere down the road, think about getting an external back-up drive.

Of course the HEART of your system is going to be your sound card. DO NOT skimp there. I would recommend the RME 96/52.
It has optical interface and up to 24 channels.

Run Windows XP PRO and the software of your choice. I prefer Nuendo, but it's costly.

Keep your machine dedicated to audio, don't load a bunch of other software on it, and if you can, don't set it up for the 'net.

[bwalker]

Great stuff guys, (gals?), I checked out your sound card recommendations. I had to stop looking because of the drool, (both lust and IQ oriented I assure you), on the keyboard. What I would also appreciate is any input into which products to avoid. I didn't make it very clear in my first post that I have a long musical history, so I trust my ability as an artist. I have been both recording and performing since I was about eleven. (This is not to say I had any creative control, or input, I was just a performer). My doubt lies in what to spend my hard earned money on. So, please keep in mind I am heavy on the technical aspects of music theory etc. but not on the technology. (Does anyone out there empathize, or do you all want to bash my head in for all the hand wringing)?

[aschek]

Hi bwalker!
I am also a beginner, but at least I have my DAW ready... at least, I think

The Digi002 is TOO MUCH for us beginners... I was at a Protools clinic and even the sales rep told me that for beginners at my stage (New age music.. no vocals, no complicated mic setup, etc...) the 002 would be an overkill....

I bought the Tascam US-428 what a great thing !! Check it out... It's like the 002 but for the rest of us

I have base my recordings on Cubase SX, but i bought it before the SL version came out... and looks like the SL is enought for me.. check out Cubase.net for more info....

Also, I have lot's of soft synths like Steinberg The Grand, IK Multimedia, Edirol, etc....

I have a few problems sometimes, but it's because I did not setup the DAW as I should... I have a P4 with 1GB RAM.. here I would recommend to get 1GB Ram (rambus or of equal speed)... if you are planning to use softsynths, do not settle for less ram...

Well... just my 2 cents...

Good luck and let us know what you got !

[bwalker]

I did just a little research and initially Nuendo looks good. From what little I read, Cubase has less post-production options. Wether it's true or not I don't know. Considering that the majority of opinions I have heard steer me away from integrated control surfaces, would you say that a mixer might be a good addition to the setup outlined by Stealthtech and Michael Jones, (is Mike okay?)? I have limited experience w/a Mackie in live performance. Would that be a good way to go? Again, all opinions much appreciated!

[Stealthtech]

A mixer is always nice to have around for multiple inputs and mic pre's, etc... or you could just as easily go with a Delta 44, 66 or 1010 interface for multiple ins and outs. Your call. I like to have both. If your budget allows it...go for it !
Cubase is a do everything program and works well. Nuendo is a little easier to use. A popular program round these parts is Sonar.
I suggest you download the free demo's and see what you like before you buy.

[PeteHalo]

Do you need to go mobile? Any chance that you'd want to record a live performance or rehearsals or what ever without having to bring your computer with you?

Here's the list of the gear I've bought for my mobile home studio.

- Fostex VF16 digital multitracker
- Fostex VM88 digital mixer (I'm thinking about replacing this with a Presonus digimax lt in the future)
- Computer AMD Athlon XP 1600+, 512MB DDR, two hds, 2 15" monitors
- Terratec EWD88D for recording and interfacing with VF16
- Yamaha DSP Factory for mixing
- 2xYamaha MPS5 & Yamaha subwoofer
- toslink and coaxial cables

Every piece of this setup is carefully chosen to give maximum performance at an affordable price. Or maybe it was just luck that they fit together perfectly. I've spent about 3000 euros (=$3000)for the gear and I'm pretty sure that you can get them considerably cheaper in US.s

Last saturday I recorded a 6 piece metal band's quick demo at their rehearsal room. I used the VF16 together with the VM88 to record 13 tracks at once. All my gear fit in one suitcase, talk about mobility. We cut 7 songs all live takes in 1 hour after spending 1.5 hours setting up the mics and making sure nothing was clipping. When I got home I transferred the tracks from Vf16 to cubase thru the adat light pipe connecting VF16 to EWS88D. That took about hour and a half.

After all the recorded material is saved as wav files on computer I create a new song in Cubase this time using the DSP Factory ASIO driver and import the tracks as wav files and assign each of the cubase tracks to it's own channel in DPS Factory and use DSPF's mixer and dynamic processors and eqs which leaves computer's cpu for all other effects and maybe in the future for software instruments. From the DSPF's spdif output the data goes into EWS88D's spdif input and using the EWS88D mixer software I route the signal untouched out to VF16 using a pair of channel of Adat lightpipe. This is where the VF16 comes into play in it's dual role as standalone multitracker and recording mixer. If I had outboard sound modules or gear I could now connect them to VF's analog inputs and use the VF16 as an external mixer to mix the signals from outboar gear with the signals coming originally from Cubase. This still leaves 3 stereo channels of EWS88D that at least in theory cuold be used by software instruments running side by side with Cubase.

How's that for a mobile studio?

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by bwalker
I did just a little research and initially Nuendo looks good. From what little I read, Cubase has less post-production options. Wether it's true or not I don't know. Considering that the majority of opinions I have heard steer me away from integrated control surfaces, would you say that a mixer might be a good addition to the setup outlined by Stealthtech and Michael Jones, (is Mike okay?)? I have limited experience w/a Mackie in live performance. Would that be a good way to go? Again, all opinions much appreciated!

Mike, Michael, hey you, ... I'll answer to just about anything!
When Nuendo first came out it was marketed as the PC PRO TOOLS alternative.
Steinberg still considers Nuendo its flagship program. I've been using it since ver. 1.0 and I still enjoy using today. I feel it is a program that you can grow with, and doubtful that you'll ever out grow it.

As far as integrated control surfaces, I guess there's 2 sides to every coin.
I use a Yamaha O1V digital mixer as a control surface for Nuendo.
Granted, it "came with" a bank of pre's that I'll never use, as well as a host of effects, but for a control surface for Nuendo, its hard to beat. Plus you can link 2 of them together for more fader control. It works like a charm, and they're getting cheaper everyday. The O1V sets up the fader animation in Nuendo, and once its set, the O1V's faders follow that animation as the song plays. It looks impressive.

With a Mackie board, you wont have control over the DAW's faders, but you will have a really nice bank of mic pre's.
With a Mackie control surface, you wont get the pre's and the Mackie control surfaces are just too expensive for what you get.

Look into an O1V for a control surface. They're cheap on e-Bay right now.

Oh yeah, the O1V also has integrated AD/DA converters that are.... decent... if you don't want to splurge for a separate AD/DA converters.

[bwalker]

Mike, is snookums ok? (You did say "just about anything")!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!! (Do you think he's thankful)? That was exactly what I was looking for! So let's see... I'm looking at

Full tower ATX case
Asus motherboard
Intel P4 2.4 gig
2 Hard drives 120 gig 7200 rpm, or SCSI at 10,000 rpm
1 gig of Ram
External Firewire HD
Plextor or Yamaha CDRW
Extra case fans
Hard drive cooler fans
Nuendo

RME 96/52
Tannoy near field moniters
Shure SM57
Yamaha 01V Mixer

Lots of cables

Anything I left out? (Of course the real trick is explaining to my wife why I need all this stuff, without having her eyes glaze over). Any help in THAT catagory would also be much appreciated!

[ambi]

Honestly i would go with fast high quality IDE drives. SCSI is just too expensive for the limited increase in speed you'll find. At least for audio i would say put that extra money towards a better mic/preamp/soundcard. Maybe a LD condensor mic? I hear the B1's are good and cheap, and the C1's are even better but not as cheap.

[aschek]

ambi ! I agree with you.. todays IDE are super fast and less expensive...... also, if you go SCSI, you will need a good scsi card, that's also an extra cost...
In my setup I have a 7,000 rpm ultra fast ide and an external Firewire 7,000rpm maxtor hdd... great combination, never had a single problem recording 4 tracks...

Alex

[bwalker]

Thanks for the input fellas, (gals?). Ambi, what would you define as a better mic/preamp/soundcard? The reason I initially posted this thread was because I didn't want to sink my money into a noisy soundcard, that didn't have the input options I needed. That's partly why I was looking at something which was set up like a mixer. So give me your recomendations and I will check them out. And if you would also be so kind as to leave a brief description of why you like the particular A/D converter I would have a lot more to consider. Thanks for taking the time to post a reply!

[Michael Jones]

I'll concede on the SCSI vs IDE hard drives.
Today's IDE's are performance oriented enough that you wouldn't notice any performance degredation.

I think it would be tough to do better than the RME 96/52 sound card though.

Full tower ATX case
Asus motherboard
Intel P4 2.4 gig
2 Hard drives 120 gig 7200 rpm
1 gig of Ram
External Firewire HD
Plextor or Yamaha CDRW
Extra case fans
Hard drive cooler fans
Nuendo

RME 96/52
Tannoy near field moniters
Shure SM57
Yamaha 01V Mixer

That's pretty much what my system consists of right there.
I have the Tannoy's too, but I also have a pair of Event 20/20 BAS's.

[aschek]

Hi Michael !
Great picture ! Hey, is this a BUSH furniture Offce Pro Cherry corner piece you are using on your setup ???
Let me know !
Alex

[ambi]

Well, i didn't mean that you needed something better. I just meant that Scsi hard drives are a lot more expensive, and that money would be very poorly spent. If you got IDE you'd save a lot, and have that much more to put into high quality mics and a sound card and preamp, etc... It depends what your budget is really.
IF your using protools, a digi 001 or 002 is good.
Other wise some good cards are the Ardvark q10 (great value, has 8 preamps in it), delta 1010, rme multiface, echo layla, then theres the c port, and some other ones. I hear the RME has got some of the best converters. But it's all a matter of what you need, and how much money you have.

I like the idea of getting an Aardvark for myself because then i wouldn't need a mixer.


Hmm sorry i'm having a hard time thinking right now i'll think about it. But it's all about money. Just break up your budget into how much you can spend. Then you can break that down into the areas of what you need. Say, 500 for preamps, 1000 for sound card, 1000 for mics, etc...

Do searches on the board a well.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by aschek
Hi Michael !
Great picture ! Hey, is this a BUSH furniture Offce Pro Cherry corner piece you are using on your setup ???
Let me know !
Alex

Damn!
Good eye. That's EXACTLY what it is!

[aschek]

Hahah !!! I used to be the International manager of Bush for Chile and Argentina.. this is why !!
Amyway, great idea to use the corner unit for the mixing setup.. great !!!!

Have a great day!
Alexander Schek

[FullSailer]

Dude, get a digidesign 001. It is perfect for starting out. It has everything you need all in one package. Pro tools is the easiest software I have ever used. I go to Full Sail, which is a recording school, so Ive had a chance to use alot of different software/soundcard setups and Ive talked to alot of people about this situation. Do yourself a favor and go with protools.

Hope that makes all this confusion a little simpler

Eric

[bwalker]

Mike;
Kewl picture. Now I have something to SHOW my wife. I'll let you guys know when I have the whole set-up put together. In the meantime keep posting recommendations. I enjoy the input as it clues me into the type and quality of person who posts on this BBS. Additionally, I just reread my post after ambi's. If I gave the impression of being snapish or ungrateful I apologize. I think I was just in a hurry when I wrote my response. Will you ever forgive me? As always much gratitude for all who read and reply!

[Kelby]

bwalker,
Definitely try all the demos on software. When you do, make sure to try the Samplitude demo of their new version 7, which comes with an incredible room simulator and an amp modeler. Samplitude is a little pricier than the other options, but if your focus is on audio recording (and it sounds like it will be), I don't think there isn't anything else that comes close. If you're going to do much MIDI, there are other programs ahead of Samplitude in that regard.

I still have version 6, but lately I seem to spend more time playing with the demo of version 7 than I do recording on version 6. I smell an upgrade coming next month.

Good luck.