Problems with WDM drivers and sonar

[WhoMe?]

Hi, this is my first post in this forum... And I'm kinda green when it comes to this computer recording stuff. Anyway, my problem is (or i think it is) this:

I can't get sonar to play back midi with the wdm drivers in use. When i check the box that says something like "use mme even if wdm drivers are available" the midi works just fine, but then the audio becomes the problem, the latency i get is something like 80ms with the mme. (This i understand, as cakewalk is optimised to use with wdm drivers, right?) So, how can i get the midi to work with the wdm?

My soundcard is a Terratec EWX 24/96 (quite similar to the audiophile 24/96) and i use Windows XP. At cakewalknet.com my soundcard is among those tested to work well with sonar and give latency as low as 3 ms or something. Also at the Terratec page there's a special .pdf file about optimising the 24/96 for sonar, i tried it but it won't work.

Any ideas how to fix this??

[brzilian]

You need to give more info. What kind of system/PC/processor do you have? RAM?

Just as an FYI, try not to post the same question in multiple forums - that only pisses people off here and will not get you many responses.

[WhoMe?]

Ok, you must be referring to the fact that I have posted the exact same question in the harmony-central Windows forum... I'm sorry if that pisses you off (or anyone else, for that matter).

My computer is a AMD2200XP 512mb ram, ASUS A7V333 VIAKT333.

[dachay2tnr]

Is the Terratec your only sound card?

IOW is the MIDI source coming from another sound card that is perhaps being disabled when you switch to MME drivers?

[WhoMe?]

Yeah, the Terratec is my only soundcard unless you count the soundcard integrated on the motherboard (i guess they all have one these days) but it's been disabled in the bios. Could it still interfere, is that what you mean?

Thanks for the swift replies, by the way.

[Jim Y]

I'm a bit puzzled. Normally, Sonar prefers WDM. Forcing Sonar to use MME will reduce performance as MME drivers have very slow response. In XP, only WDM drivers can been installed so the MME selection is pointless as it will only be accessing the drivers in "MME mode" - there will be no real MME driver. MME is the old style driver from windows 3.1 - 98. Compatabilty for MME is there in WDM for older programs.
For the midi features of a Soundcard, the switch to MME should be irrelevant - it is only for Audio drivers.
I don't know if the Terratec card you have has a midi synth, or just midi in/out (The Audiophile has no synth). At any rate, the midi driver should be part of the WDM one and all you should need to do to make it available is to ensure that the midi features are selected in Sonar/options/midi devices menu. Selected ports should be highlighted blue. If there is nothing like "Terratec midi synth" as an option, then you don't have a synth.
If the card does not have a built in midi synth and you don't own a midi synth/sound module that can be plugged into the s/cards midi out - then you will have to use a software one - either the Virtual Soundcanvas Dxi (prefered) or the Microsoft GS software synth which will work, but be a little behind the beat due to its slow latency response.

[WhoMe?]

Jim Y,

When I force sonar to use the mme drivers the GS synth appears among the midi outputs, it's not there when using wdm. With the wdm drivers EWX 24/96 MIDI and Microsoft MIDI mapper are in the list. The Terratec doesn't have an on board synth.

[brzilian]

Originally posted by WhoMe?
Ok, you must be referring to the fact that I have posted the exact same question in the harmony-central Windows forum... I'm sorry if that pisses you off (or anyone else, for that matter).

My computer is a AMD2200XP 512mb ram, ASUS A7V333 VIAKT333.

Did you check to see how well your soundcard plays with AMD/VIA systems? A quick call to Terratec would answer that question.

AMD systems in particular, ones with VIA chipsets, have been known to be very problematic when it comes to DAW's.

Cross posting doesn't piss me off, but it is bad net-ediquette.

[dachay2tnr]

Originally posted by WhoMe?
The Terratec doesn't have an on board synth.

I'm confused. So what, then, are you using for your MIDI synth when you have it working in MME mode?

If I had to guess, switching to MME mode is allowing Sonar to see your integrated sound card, and that what is playing back your MIDI for you. When you switch to WDM, Sonar no longer sees that card, and therefore no MIDI.

Are you sure it's disabled in your BIOS?

You might wanna try locating WDM drivers for your onboard sound card.

[Jim Y]

Try the midi mapper - this will play thru the midi synth selected in Control panel/sounds - The microsoft one probably. But you will get much better performance with the SoundCanvas DXi selected as an fx in an audio track. . A soundchip built into the motherboard may not have a real synth either - the driver for most of these simply directs midi to microsofts GS synth which plays via the soundcard mixer to the audio line out. Some XP drivers for onboard chips don't support midi in&out via the gameport either.
Does the Terratec have a synth daughterboard connector -you could fit a Yamaha DB51XG synth. Or get a second-hand midi synth module or keyboard.
I don't believe it's a VIA problem. I have an Audiophile running just fine on a similar KT400 mobo without any special tweaks outside those normally used for pc audio under XP - I even have it in ACPI mode.

[guitar ed]

Where else did the guy post his question? Certainly nowhere on this board. Are some of you saying that if a person posts a question here, then posts the same question on DigiFreq (another Sonar-based board) it's considered bad ettiquette? Do all of you peruse miltiple forums? What about the guys who hang out only here and nowhere else? What if nobody here can answer? Suppose the question goes unanswered after a couple days? It's impolite to seek an answer elsewhere? I'm sorry, but I have to call that a crock of bullshit. If I ask a question, and I don't get an answer that helps me, I can't believe that I'm just shit out of luck, cuz it's bad ettiquette to post somewhere else. Do you realize how friggin' big the net is? Are you saying that there's at least one guy in every forum on the net who has all the answers? Because if not, I'll sure as hell post somewhere else if noone here can answer a question for me. I know I'm sounding like a bitch right now, but I've seen people get ripped for this unforgivable cross-posting thing, and I think it's shit. Give me one reason why it's considered bad ettiquette. If I'm looking for a used copy of Sonar Power at Barnes and Noble, is it bad ettiquette to ask for the same thing at Amazon? Ask a question at forum A, wait God knows how long for an answer. Ask the question at forums A, B, and C, and you've just tripled your chances for a quick response. Anyway, have a nice day, and WhoMe, you have my permission to post in as many forums as you can find.
Ed

[brzilian]

Originally posted by guitar ed
Where else did the guy post his question? Certainly nowhere on this board. Are some of you saying that if a person posts a question here, then posts the same question on DigiFreq (another Sonar-based board) it's considered bad ettiquette? Do all of you peruse miltiple forums? What about the guys who hang out only here and nowhere else? What if nobody here can answer? Suppose the question goes unanswered after a couple days? It's impolite to seek an answer elsewhere? I'm sorry, but I have to call that a crock of bullshit. If I ask a question, and I don't get an answer that helps me, I can't believe that I'm just shit out of luck, cuz it's bad ettiquette to post somewhere else. Do you realize how friggin' big the net is? Are you saying that there's at least one guy in every forum on the net who has all the answers? Because if not, I'll sure as hell post somewhere else if noone here can answer a question for me. I know I'm sounding like a bitch right now, but I've seen people get ripped for this unforgivable cross-posting thing, and I think it's shit. Give me one reason why it's considered bad ettiquette. If I'm looking for a used copy of Sonar Power at Barnes and Noble, is it bad ettiquette to ask for the same thing at Amazon? Ask a question at forum A, wait God knows how long for an answer. Ask the question at forums A, B, and C, and you've just tripled your chances for a quick response. Anyway, have a nice day, and WhoMe, you have my permission to post in as many forums as you can find.
Ed

Wow!

Lay off the caffeine man...

[guitar ed]

See what I mean? That's not an answer! Why is it bad etiquette? What's wrong with posting in more than one forum? Who can answer that? Caffiene doesn't piss me off. It sometimes gives me an upset stomach, and contrary to what most people think, it doesn't really pep me up, either. So, we have to rule that one out.
Ed

[James Argo]

...Well, you may post as you like in another "outside" forum, but not here, in the same BBS. It means, you may ask a same exactly question here, and in www.blahblahblah.com/bbs, but not here (in Cakewalk Forum, Homerecording.com/bbs) and there (in Mixing/Mastering forum, Homerecording.com/bbs). Just not polite. That's it folks...


Jaymz

[guitar ed]

He didn't cross post here. He posted the same question at Harmony Central, which I would consider an 'outside' forum. You guys seem to be losing sight of why people come here seeking answers. Between 'read the manual' and 'don't cross-post', nothing gets answered. And James Argo, you didn't answer the question, either. You simply said it's not polite. Bullshit! WHY isn't it polite. I also didn't see any moderators bitch-slapping this guy for (oooooohhhhh)(shudder) cross-posting. Accept the fact that this isn't the only damn forum on the net. I have gone days without an answer to my questions here, and some don't get answered at all. This is crazy. I shopped at Wal-Mart today, so I guess it would be impolite to go into a K-Mart tomorrow. Anyway, WhoMe, I'm sorry that your first experience here had to wind up being an argument, but I've been hanging around here for awhile, and I see this childish bickering all the time. Can't take it anymore, so I guess I'll be getting out of here. No one will help you out if you piss them off. Good luck, and farewell.

Ed

[WhoMe?]

Maybe i should give a detailed description of how the problem manifests itself, with wdm drivers in use:

I have downloaded a midi backing track for a guitar solo. I open the file in sonar, and try and play it, but there's no sound. Then i go to the midi devices dialogue and fiddle with the midi outputs, i also change the midi settings from the win control panel. Suddenly, i hear the midi sound, but when try to set up an audio track to record my guitar solo, the audio engine won't switch on (regardless of how latency is set). I exit sonar, and restart, open the midi backing track, and again there's no sound, even though all the midi device settings are exactly as i left them! In other words, the changes i make in the midi device settings in sonar and in the control panel (i've gotten midi playback with both the microsoft gs synth and the ewx 24/96 midi) seen to have no effect at all. But in some way just fiddling around with them suddenly makes the midi playback in sonar work.

And about the other thing, i'm here just for the info, not for getting into a debate about good/bad net etiquette. Thank you everyone for taking the time to read and answer my questions.

AND... Why does the sampling rate displayed on the Terratec mixer switch to 22050Hz when the midi is playing back (I normally have it at 44100hz)??

[dachay2tnr]

To play back a midi file you must have a MIDI synthesizer. That can be an external device, a DXi, or a sound card that is so equipped.

From what you have described you have no external device, no DXi established, and your Terratec is not equipped with a MIDI synthsizer. As such, I can only guess that you are somehow switching on your onboard sound card as you change settings.

However, as someone suggested, the simplest way around this is to use a DXi. You have a couple that came supplied with Sonar.

[Jim Y]

I'm blessed with a couple of real midi synths, so haven't had to resort to the method that seems to be causing you the trouble.
Usually, the only way to lose audio playback is to select Sonars midi clock slave sync. You can't have Audio if Sonar is slaving to midi clock. Sometimes, if your pc is not optimised or audio latency is too low ( the 3ms quoted is the theoretical minimum and it will be happier at twice that or more - this is in WDM mode) the Audio engine will stop (midi will continue!). If you've switched to MME mode the latency has to be set much higher - maybe 20-30ms. Too low a latency also causes crackling and pops in playback, this will not happen under other normal Windows apps (like media player) because they use a fixed buffer setting of 30ms. For the same reason, generic soundcards are usually free from problems, but at the cost of more latency.
For normal playback of Sonar audio and midi you should have the sync toolbar button with the soundcard icon depressed and should see the words "Audio Running" in the status bar on the bottom of Sonars main screen.
Proper recording soundcards like your EWX can run at any sample rate. Usually, there is a setting in such a cards control panel telling it the default rate. For music, you should set it to the one you normally use (I stick with 44.1khz).. Generic cards use a fixed sample-rate (usually 48khz) and convert whatever is actually playing to and from this. Under XP, Apps like Media player always use the so called MME interface to the card. This includes the 30ms buffer I mentioned but also carries out sample rate conversion to match what is playing to the rate your card is set at and to mix different format sounds together. If it keeps springing back to 22khz then it's probably just reporting the rate from the Microsoft midi synth, which I think is all you can be hearing midi from. See if your EWX has an option to stop other apps altering it's settings.
You might consider getting another card for Windows apps and midi.
A Creative Audigy2 will give you midi soundfonts (a form of sampling) or a Turtlebeach Santa Cruz (DLS midi samples) will happily give you midi functions together with an extra midi interface as well as handle all the sound formats from Windows apps including games which the EWX is not really designed for - its a specialist and will be far superior the the 2 I mentioned for Audio recording and playback in Sonar. This is what I do - Audiophile for Audio and SantaCruz for both Midi (just for a metronome usually) and other Windows apps. It does mean having a mixer to be able to hear both together though.
But if all you want midi for is for backing tracks, perhaps you might consider using audio sample loops - such as those intended for Sonic Foundrys Acid. Using these in Sonar as groove clips, you can alter the playback tempo to suit and will probably sound better than midi files via a generic software synth.

[WhoMe?]

Thanks Jim y, that cleared up a lot of things.

So might this be the problem then: The Microsoft midi synth is playing back at 22khz and i can't hear audio from sonar during midi playback because the audio is at 44khz? Conversely, when the audio track is set up, i can't hear the midi synth because the audio from sonar is using the ewx driver at 44khz and the midi synth would need 22khz to play?

Am I making any sense???

[Jim Y]

Pending deeper investigation, the theory does fit. You should still investigate the VSC (Virtual Sound Canvas) DXi synth that comes with Sonar, it's actually quite good but can be a bit of a fiddle to set up.

[BluesMeister]

Greetings WhoMe - or can I just call you Me?

I have a Terratec EWX 24/96 and Home Studio 2002. I can get the VSC DXi working. I do have other issues with my system & HS2002, but generally I'm satisfied with the results.

What I did was to set up a very basic project with Rhodes, Piano, Electric Piano, Bass, Other & Drums. I saved this project as BASE.WRK, so whenever I want to start up a new project I click on Base.wrk and it's already set up for me complete with VSC DXi.

All I have to do then is come up with the killer riff, fancy chords and Save As my latest tune

When you say you tried the Terratec Configuring the EWS88MT/EWS88D/EWX 24/96 for Sonar but it didn't work, I presume you mean it didn't solve your inability to hear MIDI?

The Microsoft midi synth is playing back at 22khz and i can't hear audio from sonar during midi playback because the audio is at 44khz? Conversely, when the audio track is set up, i can't hear the midi synth because the audio from sonar is using the ewx driver at 44khz and the midi synth would need 22khz to play?

That's a bit too technical for my feeble knowledge to contend with I'm afraid What I can tell you though is that you will need to set up one of your audio tracks in your project for your DXi. The instructions in your manual Using Soft Synths explains it clearly.

I just tried this with Tutorial5.BUN setting up the guitar audio track FX box to accept the VSC DXi and it worked I patched an electric piano in there and set up a MIDI track, voila, audio & MIDI together.

--
BluesMeister

[WhoMe?]

BluesMeister, you have just solved my problem!

And Thanks to all others who suggested trying DXi, i should have tired it earlier. For some reason it didn't install with sonar so i was thinking DXi? Whaa?, but i popped the cd in and installed it separately, works like a charm!

Thanks!

[BluesMeister]

Originally posted by WhoMe?
BluesMeister, you have just solved my problem!

That's great news. Now, would you like to solve my problem? See my post HS2002: Solo Button & Tempo Ratio Misbehaving It's got me stumped.

--
BluesMeister