Instead of buying DMP's,RNP's, Meeks, and the like....

[MISTERQCUE]

...............shouldn't we just SAVE for ONE great pre such as Fairchild's, Neve's,Pultec's,Telefunkens,vintage Ampex's and such?
I mean, I have seen a mother-lode of pre-threads here and elsewhere where most excellent advice and samples were given on low to mid-level priced pre's which provide above-standard
operation,performance and application.
Because of several of you good peeps here, I am presently equipped with 5 diff pre's which provides me with more than adequate processing, yet couldn't the cheddar I have spent,along with saving a few G's more simply afforded me with 1 outstanding pre that has all the "tonal qualities" w/o selling my 1st born!!??

[ozraves]

Originally posted by MISTERQCUE
...............shouldn't we just SAVE for ONE great pre such as Fairchild's, Neve's,Pultec's,Telefunkens,vintage Ampex's and such?
I mean, I have seen a mother-lode of pre-threads here and elsewhere where most excellent advice and samples were given on low to mid-level priced pre's which provide above-standard
operation,performance and application.
Because of several of you good peeps here, I am presently equipped with 5 diff pre's which provides me with more than adequate processing, yet couldn't the cheddar I have spent,along with saving a few G's more simply afforded me with 1 outstanding pre that has all the "tonal qualities" w/o selling my 1st born!!??

the best mic preamp i've ever heard is the gordon audio. so, if you got a few gs, then why not get the best.

[Dot]

Many of the pres mentioned in this article are under $1K and are world-class.
To Pre or Not To Pre

------------
Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

[littledog]

It's always a dilemma - sometimes you have $500 burning a hole in your pocket, and you just gotta spend it!

For some, it's plain not realistic. If you're not a pro (or even if you are), you have to budget efficiently. For some, aiming at owning "just" a U47, a VIPRE, and an LA2A means that their kids would have crooked teeth and would have to go to the local community college.

And a Fairchild? That's a hefty downpayment on a new house. While you could probably heat your house with one in a pinch, buying a Fairchild is not a realistic priority for most of us. There's just too many other day to day demands on our resources.

Great gear is sexy, and I'm as guilty as anyone in succumbing to its allure, but still the best bang for the buck investment for a lot of us would be improving our room acoustics.

Too bad you can't bundle up all the cheap crap you buy over the years and trade it all for one or two really good pieces. You sort of can, by selling it on e-bay, but you don't make anywhere near what you paid for it...

[Lopp]

I'd loooove to save up for an expensive pre. However, I tend to fall into pipeline's description.

Even more importantly, I was musing about something similar to this subject. In particular, it would be great to save to buy a great pre instead of spending more money in the long run buying and upgrading less expensive pre's. Yet, in purchasing the pre, one is sacrificing $$ that could be used on other equipment. For example, it would be silly to get a Fairchild to amplify a V-Tech mic into a Porta07.

Also, during the period of saving, one is sacrificing the use of the pre. Getting experience on your equipment is almost more important than the quality of your equipment.

Which is not to say the expensive equipment isn't worth it. It is to say the experience of using the equipment can be worth starting out small.



There Q. Don't you feel better?

[participant]

There's also some middle ground... don't you think, Q? I mean... Great River MP-2NV and Avalon 737/sp sound gangbusters... but they're both under 2g's.

It depends on what your plans are too, no? If you're going to create a full-on serious setup, then maybe that extra-expensive gear would work... but in that case... why not just buy a desk? No need for outboard pre's... other than for "color".

If you're just recording a few "jammies"... damn... you could rock the joint with a Great River, and Avalon & some RNPs. It's diminishing returns after that... true?

[tdukex]

Expensive gear is indeed sexy. But I've heard a lot of great recordings on this board and other places done with Mackie, Meek, and ART pres and inexpensive AT, Rode, Marshall, Oktava, and SP mics. Not good recordings. Great recordings. Many of them professional. I admit, my ears are not the greatest. Perhaps they are full of mud. But I just don't see the need for most of us to be saving our money for $2,000 mic pres. Of course, I don't really need a $2,000 guitar either, but I gots one.

[Middleman]

I would like to step up to the next level but because money is tight like everyone else, I need to know how some of the under $1K preamps stack up.

Where does the RNP, Grace 101, in the $500 range, stack up against the Great River ME-1NV, API 212L, Earthworks Lab 1, John Hardy M-1, Summit, Speck and other <$1K preamps? Is the step up dramatic or necessary for a home project studio?

I could see if I were running a business that the quality of the gear is a marketing factor in itself but for home, when are you spending excessive dollars for incremental results, is it worth it?

Somebody convince me that the step up from say the RNP is dramatically a better single solution vs. having 3-4 under $500 pres i.e. Meek, VBT-1, DMP3, Prosonus etc. for more variety.

There would have to be one killer and versatile pre sitting around $1K and I would quit buying the low end stuff and buy it.

[chessrock]

Originally posted by Middleman
There would have to be one killer and versatile pre sitting around $1K and I would quit buying the low end stuff and buy it.

Well, last time I checked the Groove Tubes Vipre still sells for $3K. That's still a couple G's out of your budget. Can't say I've ever heard anything done on a pre in the $1K range that made me perk up and say "Wow, what a difference that preamp makes."

But there seems to be a lot of people here convinced they're hearing something I'm obviously not, so I'm assuming it must be some sort of metaphysical thing. Oh well. Then again I've been hearing some very drastic earth-rocking differences out of $1,000 microphones that some of these C1 owners don't seem to be hearing, so maybe it's just me.

Your closest bet at $1K would likely be the MP1-NV, although I'm merely guessing at this one.

[ozraves]

Originally posted by Middleman
I

Where does the RNP, Grace 101, in the $500 range, stack up against the Great River ME-1NV, API 212L, Earthworks Lab 1, John Hardy M-1, Summit, Speck and other <$1K preamps? Is the step up dramatic or necessary for a home project studio?

It all depends on what you want. Some of the big boys really love the RNP and compare it to some of the best channels in the world. I haven't done any comparisons.

The Grace 101, Great River MP-1NV, Earthworks Lab 101, John Hardy M-1, Sytek MPX-4 are all proven under $1,000 mic preamps. I really don't have a preference among these. I think it'll take a bit before I'm convinced the RNP belongs in this group. It probably does but I'm pretty damn hard to please.

Steve
www.piemusic.com

[geekgurl]

So let's say you save your money for a great pre ... it's going to have a certain sound, a certain characteristic. What if it's "fast" and "clean"? Then what do you do when you want a fatter sound that can be had from tubes or some solid states that are "slow"? Well, since you spent 3 Gs, you ain't gonna do shit because you dont' have the $$ now to buy another and hence own two different pres.

Same with mics. Say you bought a U47. Super. How you gonna record those drum overheads now? you don't have any dough left to buy a small pair of GREAT OH condensers ... Hope yer room's good and you can get away with that one U47 quite a distance back to pick up the whole kit. Your room sucks, you say? Ah well, you can't afford Auralex now either.

So I think the compromises we in home-studio-land must make reflect our conversations about RNPs, DMPs, NTKs, etc.

Don't get me wrong: I think it's a good recommendation to say, plan what gear you need, being as minimalist as possible (most ppl here would be set with an SM57, then an LD condenser and a pair of SDs, maybe one "character" pre and one stereo clean pre for drum OHs, etc). Then one could prioritize and make a couple of those items pretty nice. "Pretty nice," of course, depends on what you're recording (what is it, a bar-band demo, just a hobby, a commercial release, a pro songwriter's demo?), how good you are at recording, and if the gear is just for you and your friends or for paying clients.

It is a worthy topic to bring up, Mr. Q. like a reminder of what our horizons could be ... just, you know, remember most of us must scale down our gear-acquisition aspirations, and, given our stature in the industry (like, most of us don't make money on this), rightly so. But I guess bottom line to what I am saying is, I don't think any ONE piece of gear is going to be all you ever need. Maybe sell some of your midrange stuff and take that money and buy one good pre of different quality than whatever pres you decide to keep. Same with mics.

[Dot]

Originally posted by Middleman

There would have to be one killer and versatile pre sitting around $1K and I would quit buying the low end stuff and buy it.

Right at $950 or so, there are two units that stand out. If you are mostly doing acoustic-based music, the John Hardy M-1 is simply one of the best pres in the world. And you can even bypass the transformer.

If you're doing more rock-type stuff, the Great River MP-1NV is a great pre.

We're listening to A LOT of pres and if I - personally - had to walk out and only take one with me, it would be the John Hardy M-1. Very musical, tighty focused and natural. While there's a lot of pres we all like, so far, the John Hardy gets more comments than any other pre in our sessions.

------------
Dan Richards
Digital Pro Sound
The Listening Sessions

[littledog]

Nicely stated, Geekgurl.

And Dot is right on the money with his $1K recommendations!

[Middleman]

Dot,

We're listening to A LOT of pres and if I - personally - had to walk out and only take one with me, it would be the John Hardy M-1.

And I just may but I'm waiting for your 3rd session which includes the RNP before I make a decision. Great job by the way on the work you have done so far.

[Middleman]

Wow, my first double post. How did that happen?

[alanhyatt]

Originally posted by chessrock
Well, last time I checked the Groove Tubes Vipre still sells for $3K. That's still a couple G's out of your budget. Can't say I've ever heard anything done on a pre in the $1K range that made me perk up and say "Wow, what a difference that preamp makes."

But there seems to be a lot of people here convinced they're hearing something I'm obviously not, so I'm assuming it must be some sort of metaphysical thing. Oh well. Then again I've been hearing some very drastic earth-rocking differences out of $1,000 microphones that some of these C1 owners don't seem to be hearing, so maybe it's just me.

Your closest bet at $1K would likely be the MP1-NV, although I'm merely guessing at this one.

Not to be rude Chessrock, but are you saying we can assume you actually own a Vipre and all of the other preamps in that high end range? From your post it gives me the feeling that you own all of this high end gear. Since you say you never heard anything done on a pre in the $1K range that made you perk up and say "Wow, I assume that you have personally done all the comparrisons on these $3K boxes you own. Being this is the case, then you are more than qualified to offer your opinion on the subject.

You also say you have been hearing some very drastic earth-rocking differences out of $1,000 microphones that some of these C1 owners don't seem to be hearing, so maybe it's just you. The last time we got into this, your high end mic in your studio was a Marshall V67, and you mic amp was a Joemeek! So, how did you go from basement studio to Oceanway Mid West so quickly?

[regebro]

Originally posted by MISTERQCUE
...............shouldn't we just SAVE for ONE great pre such as Fairchild's, Neve's,Pultec's,Telefunkens,vintage Ampex's and such?

Not neccesarily. I have two preamps, and although the Line Audio DP1 is without a doubt a very transparent and clean preamp, it's still the Art Tube MP I use for vocals. Why? Becuse on vocals, it sounds better. It has a slight HF roll-off that works very nice together with my Oktava on vocals.

However, on acoustic guitar, I want the high-end to really shine, and that won't happen if it isn't there, so I'm using the Line Audio preamp there.

I can get some of the the same HF roll-off by using an SM57 instead of the Oktava, so sure, instead of having two preamps I can have two mics. But on the other hand, on electric guitars, the short tests I've done so far, it seems like I'm mostly gonna go with an SM57 through the Art, to get a double HF roll-off, to cut the edges of the sound and get a smooth overdrive.

[TexRoadkill]

For me it comes down to budget, function and quality. If you are just recording yourself than anything goes in terms of quality and flexibility. If you like it then that is all that matters.

If you want to work effectively with more than one performer at a time you really need a good mixing console. Any studio that wants to have any kind of flexibility and efficiency has to spend 10x the amount on standalone pres and specialty items just to be 50% as proficient as a good console. So with that in mind if your question is console or pres then the console should come first.

After that everything else is icing on the cake. My main purchasing guidelines these days are never buy anything that puts all it's value in digital processing. Never buy anything that costs less than $300 unless I don't mind risking throwing that money away. Never buy anything that doesn't have a strong resale value. If it costs more than 2 grand buy it used. If you can borrow one from a friend that's even better than buying it yourself

[JuSumPilgrim]

This thread is pretty mindless. Despite the large jump in the bang for the buck of what $500 could get you recently (last couple of years), the childish equation of --more money = better-- persists. Theres plenty of excellent gear that can get you a recording that people listen to and say "wow" without spending $1500 on a pre if you have quality music, quality performers, a decent room that you know well and the talent to make it happen. If you KNOW things like which take is THE take to go with, how to produce and direct, what a good idea is and whats old and tired, when something can work with slight modification and when not, etc etc.
Even if Great Rivers and APIs were being blown out at GC for $200 there would be posts like "...maybe we should stop buying Great Rivers and APIs and save up for Crane Song, DW Fearn, and Phoenix..."

[christiaan]

Originally posted by JuSumPilgrim
This thread is pretty mindless. Despite the large jump in the bang for the buck of what $500 could get you recently (last couple of years), the childish equation of --more money = better-- persists. Theres plenty of excellent gear that can get you a recording that people listen to and say "wow" without spending $1500 on a pre if you have quality music, quality performers, a decent room that you know well and the talent to make it happen. If you KNOW things like which take is THE take to go with, how to produce and direct, what a good idea is and whats old and tired, when something can work with slight modification and when not, etc etc.
Even if Great Rivers and APIs were being blown out at GC for $200 there would be posts like "...maybe we should stop buying Great Rivers and APIs and save up for Crane Song, DW Fearn, and Phoenix..."

Excellent post.

[Michael Jones]

Good discussion here. I really like to see this kind of thought exchange.
There will always be 2 schools of thought on this toipic.
Those that say a $200 - $500 pre is all you need, and
Those that say you're missing out if you haven't tried a $2000 pre.

Having gone down both paths, I tend to agree with the latter.
I think my first outboard pre was the audio buddy. It ended up as garage sale fodder real quick. I was so dissapointed in that little box.
Somewhere down the line I acquired a dbx286a. Better. But it's sits in its box in the closet now.
Sometime later, a friend lent me his Joe Meek. An ok pre to be sure, but still, less than stellar in my opinion.
Sometime later I bought an ART PRO MPA. Some people like them, some don't. I do. But to my discerning ear, it still seemed to lack luster and shine.
My next purchase was a PAIR of Audix 35102's racked by Brent.
My initial thoughts on this pre were: ehhh, that's better, but...

BUT, as pre's go, this one is more sophisticated than the others I've had, and it took me a while to learn how to really use it. But once I did, I instantly understood the meaning of words like: discrete, transparent, and shimmering. These were not expensive pre's either. I think they were around $950 each plus the power supply. I can't remember, it's been too long.
But the point is, with each "upgrade" I've been able to hear a difference in overall sonic clarity, especially when mixing down several tracks.
(I'm also convinced that Brent and his team are nothing short of magicians, and my next pre purchase is definately comming from them!)

So, to answer you're initial question Mr Q: are we better off foregoing all this "pro-summer" gear, and jumping off into the deep end of high dollar mic pre's?

I'd have to say no. Your ears will tell you when its time to upgrade, in the meantime, you have to cut your eye teeth on something.

[JuSumPilgrim]

Originally posted by Michael Jones
Good discussion here. I really like to see this kind of thought exchange.
There will always be 2 schools of thought on this toipic.
Those that say a $200 - $500 pre is all you need, and
Those that say you're missing out if you haven't tried a $2000 pre.

Having gone down both paths, I tend to agree with the latter.
I think my first outboard pre was the audio buddy. It ended up as garage sale fodder real quick. I was so dissapointed in that little box.
Somewhere down the line I acquired a dbx286a. Better. But it's sits in its box in the closet now.
Sometime later, a friend lent me his Joe Meek. On ok pre to be sure, but still, less than stellar in my opinion.
Sometime later I bought an ART PRO MPA. Some people like them, some don't. I do. But to my discerning ear, it still seemed to lack luster and shine.
My next purchase was a PAIR of Audix 35102's racked by Brent.
My initial thoughts on this pre were: ehhh, that's better, but...

All the cheap pres you mentioned are basically worthless and I would never use them on guitar, vocals or drums. The PRO MPA? Once you add a 3rd track with any art pre, the noise level and definition in your mix are gone. Joe Meek? Maybe on a couple of guitar tracks. Certianly not as a main pre. Never mind the dbx286 and audiobuddy. Its much easier to do clean for $500 than dirty. But thats what you want to be relying on most of the time.

[Michael Jones]

Pilgrim - I'm not advocating cheap pre's; quite the opposite in fact.
The point is, if I can hear the difference in a $300 mic pre and a $1000 mic pre, then I'd be willing to bet I can hear the difference in a $1000 mic pre and a $3000 mic pre.
That's not to say that you have to rush out and spend the kids college money on your next pre. Nor is it to say that you can't get excellent results with that $300 mic pre. And your point about the room, the performers and the ability is well taken. But to advocate that there's no difference at all between a $500 pre and a $1500(+) pre is irresponsible.

All other things being equal you won't convince me that this mic pre:


Is better than or equal to this one:


Littledog is right though, most all of us would do better to concentrate on our rooms rather than our rack.

[littledog]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill

If you want to work effectively with more than one performer at a time you really need a good mixing console. Any studio that wants to have any kind of flexibility and efficiency has to spend 10x the amount on standalone pres and specialty items just to be 50% as proficient as a good console. So with that in mind if your question is console or pres then the console should come first.

After that everything else is icing on the cake. My main purchasing guidelines these days are never buy anything that puts all it's value in digital processing.

I understand that many people are dead set against Pro Tools or other similar type studios, but assuming it is a direction that one MIGHT choose, it is possible to invest in high quality preamps running directly to the converters, with the mixing board functioning only as a monitor and cue mix device, thus making the need for an expensive console less important.

I probably record as many varieties of sources as anyone else, and while you could make the point that my Pro Tools HD recordings are by definition inferior to your analog ones, I like to delude myself into thinking that I am skilled enough to make them at least in the ballpark. At least the clients, so far, seem to think so...

[JuSumPilgrim]

Originally posted by Michael Jones
Pilgrim - I'm not advocating cheap pre's; quite the opposite in fact.
The point is, if I can hear the difference in a $300 mic pre and a $1000 mic pre, then I'd be willing to bet I can hear the difference in a $1000 mic pre and a $3000 mic pre.
That's not to say that you have to rush out and spend the kids college money on your next pre. Nor is it to say that you can't get excellent results with that $300 mic pre. And your point about the room, the performers and the ability is well taken. But to advocate that there's no difference at all between a $500 pre and a $1500(+) pre is irresponsible.

All other things being equal you won't convince me that this mic pre:


Is better than or equal to this one:


Littledog is right though, most all of us would do better to concentrate on our rooms rather than our rack.

Michael, youre making huge generalizations. There is plenty of shit in the $300 pre category and there are instances of quality. Youre saying that pres like that aphex pre which is probably bad is worse than a neve. Wow. Youre a sonic genius. Nobody will argue that point. It gets less clear when youre talking about the grace, RNP, mindprint, sytek, and others (not as compared to neve but other clean pres in the clean genre +$1k). Im just pointing out the ridiculousness of painting with a broad brush. All $500 pres are not the same.