Could someone please help me with my new Studio Projects B1?

[Julia]

Tomorrow and Friday I'll be undertaking the project of recording a lot of little children. I just purchased a Studio Projects B1 for this purpose, and I received it this evening. I have many questions, having never owned or used a condenser mic before. My recording unit is simply the Boss BR-1180CD, into which I plug the B1 directly. (Yes, it does have phantom power.)

Questions...

1.) It sounds as though there's something loose inside the mic. Like a tiny screw shaking around in there? Is that normal?

2.) It says the mic comes with a shock mount, but it did not. Should I place anything under the mic stand, or just duct tape the feet of the children to the floor?

3.) It did come with a very large foam wind screen. Should I use that for recording a group of ten? (Total of 170 kids, but I"m only recording groups of ten at any one time.)

4.) Most important, how should I position the mic. How high, and how far away from the children?

5.) The room I'll be recording in is less than ideal. It's the school library, but one of the walls has a whole row of windows. There's carpeting on the floor, but even in my tiny room here, when I tried the mic, I had a very "tinny" sort of sound coming from the room. Any acoustical suggestions?

I'd better stop asking questions. I sure hope someone who has a B1 has time to respond this evening, since I need to record the children beginning first thing tomorrow morning.

Thanks very much.

Julia

[Julia]

Uh oh...I forgot one question...

Should the mic itself be positioned straight up? Vertically?

Thank you very much again.

Julia

[chessrock]

1.) It sounds as though there's something loose inside the mic. Like a tiny screw shaking around in there? Is that normal?

I'd give Alan a call or send him an email. He takes care of his customers well, so I'm sure he'll be Johnny-on-the-spot for you on that one.

2.) It says the mic comes with a shock mount, but it did not. Should I place anything under the mic stand, or just duct tape the feet of the children to the floor?

The shockmount is actually supposed to be some sort of internal concoction. I haven't found it to work all that well, so it certainly wouldn't hurt to buy a separate one. After testing it out a few times, you'll know whether or not you need one.

3.) It did come with a very large foam wind screen. Should I use that for recording a group of ten? (Total of 170 kids, but I"m only recording groups of ten at any one time.)

You probably won't need it. You might want to stick it on there if/when recording solo voices, though.

4.) Most important, how should I position the mic. How high, and how far away from the children?

That's a very good question. Since it's pickup pattern is cardiod, your options will be limited with just one. I'd start out by placing it out front, approximately eye-level to the kids . . . and then just move it around untill you find a spot that sounds good to you.

5.) The room I'll be recording in is less than ideal. It's the school library, but one of the walls has a whole row of windows. There's carpeting on the floor, but even in my tiny room here, when I tried the mic, I had a very "tinny" sort of sound coming from the room. Any acoustical suggestions?

Yea. Open the windows if it doesn't let in too much outside noise. In terms of accoustics, you have some very interesting possibilities with all those bookshelves. Natural diffusors. Yumm. I'd start out by pushing all the bookshelves against the walls, and pull out some of the books so there are some gaps. Pull some of the books so they stick out a few inches from the shelf, while leaving others all the way in. Lay some of them horizontally while keeping others verticle. Fill any empty spots with various objects of different sizes and textures.

The idea is to create sort of a complex surface (not flat) on all the walls in order to diffuse what would otherwise be slap echoes off the walls. Open windows will help some of the sound escape. You could probably still benefit from some bass trappage, but that could get costly and/or time-consuming.

If echoes still sound nasty, then I'd try hanging several packing blankets . . . from the ceiling, drape them over the book shelves, hang them over any dividers or spare desks, etc. etc. That would be a real shame to have to resort to, considering the possibilities all the library bookshelves might hold.

[Julia]

Thank you very much for your response, chessrock.

While reading it, I had a thought. How about placing the mic and kids right in the stacks. In other words, a stack of books on either side of them? Would that help?

Thanks very much again.

Julia

[chessrock]

Originally posted by Julia
How about placing the mic and kids right in the stacks. In other words, a stack of books on either side of them? Would that help?

That might defeat the purpose, but it's a good thought.

On first read, I thought you were thinking of throwing all the kids in to a big, gigantic stack of books, or on the actual bookshelves. That might make for a fun sidetrack to your day, and I must say I find the thought amuzing. But still not sure how much that would accomplish, either.

The idea is to diffuse the echoes as they (would otherwise) hit the wall, if that makes any sense.

[Julia]

Right...I was thinking the books would absorb more sound, and would be on either side of the kids, instead of walls.

But I don't know what the heck I'm talking about, so...




And the B1 just stands straight upright? Or should it be angled?

I hope it works okay. It really does sound like there's a little piece of something or other shaking around in there. Sounds like a small metal piece, such as a screw.

No time to send it back, unfortunately. Have just this chance to record the kids.

Thank you again, chessrock.

[chessrock]

Originally posted by Julia
I was thinking the books would absorb more sound, and would be on either side of the kids, instead of walls.

The idea would be for the shelves and books to diffuse the sound as opposed to absorbing it. Diffuse ambience is generally more desirable, as opposed to the typical slap/echoe thing you'll (likely) otherwise have going on (when surfaces are flat and/or smoothe). The subject can take up many volumes itself, so it's tough to go in to too much detail in one thread.

For absorbing sound, I would try the packing blankets. Drape them over dividers if you have them, or hang them from the ceilings or over makeshift "clotheslines" using rope . . . something to that effect.

You have a very unique opportunity, given the natural abundance of bookshelves in your library, to experiment with diffusing the echoe. I would highly recommend giving it a try before you try minimizing (or deadening) it. You would probably best be served using some combination of both.

In terms of how to angle the mic, it really depends on what sounds right to you. One of us might tell you to angle it 30 degrees towards the chalk board , but it might sound like shit if when you actually try it. No way of telling for sure without being there and trying it out.

[DJL]

The mic is faulty if you hear a tiny screw shaking around in there.

[Julia]

Thanks, DJL...

Figures. Anything that can go wrong, will, I guess.

Sigh. It spouts and sputters too, so I guess it's just a faulty microphone. Just what we DIDN'T need. I regret ordering it now, but what can you do? I'll have to send it back, and so much for using it today and tomorrow to record the kids. I paid a lot of extra cash to have that Studio Projects B1 shipped from Wisconsin to Maine so that I could get the nicest recording of the children possible.

THanks for the information, despite the bad news.

Julia

[esactun]

Just some things to double-check to make sure that you have a defective mic...

The internal shockmounting on the B1 means that if you gently shake the mic, you'll feel and see the capsule bouncing around independently of the grille and mic housing. It's supposed to be that way. If the capsule bumps the inside of the housing while the mic is live, you'll get a nasty blast of sound, but it won't generally happen if it's mounted on a stand and noone is hitting the stand or stomping on the floor next to it.

Hopefully this helps. The (working) B1 is really a nice mic, especially for the price, and Alan Hyatt has good customer service, so try to get a hold of him and see what he can do for you.

And if you're in a pinch and really need a mic, is there a music store in your area where you can rent one for a day or two? You can use most any condenser mic they have.

Best of luck!!

[jeap]

it can take a while to get used to your first condenser...

the foam windscreen is just that: a WIND screen. you dont want to use it if youre not outside on a windy day. its for stopping wind noise. it also cuts high frequencies considerably.

the windscreen is good for keeping dust out of the mic if you leave it set up. dust can be harmful.

it can also keep moist breath off the element but that wont be much of a problem for you.

the best thing to use for that is a popper stopper.

if your singers are well away from the mic then dont worry about it.

the B3 would have been a better choice for group vocals. a cardiod pattern is too tight. a lot of the voices will be off axis and will be attenuated and degraded. the B3 has an omni pattern.

for that matter the behringer ecm8000 would suit you well. its an omnidirectional mic for about 40 bucks.

the floors of a library are usually pretty solid. if you have headphones you can wear them and have someone stomp around to see what happens with the mic on. if you dont hear much of anything then dont worry about it. if you do hear a problem or if the floor is unstable you could suspend the mic from the ceiling by its cable. just put a small hook on the ceiling. if the cable is too short you can string two cables together.

good luck!

[Julia]

Thanks very much to all of you for your responses. I appreciate your guidance.

By the way...I was originally going to buy the B3, but was pointed by several people toward the B1 instead, due to potential phasing issues, etc. I was originally thinking about encircling a B3 with children to record them thusly, but opted for the B1 after receiving much appreciated advice on this board.

Anyway...today's the last day of recording...we'll see what happens. Frankly, I'm amazed that children so young (and so tiny!) could pop on a pair of headphones and sing! I thought those headphones would end up being a total nightmare. Not so at all. A credit to the wee ones, bless their little hearts.

Oh...to someone who told me that 80% of little kids sing WAY off pitch when they raise their little voices up...umm...good point. True as can be. Still precious, however. Precious, indeed.

THanks again.

Julia

[Brent Casey]

Julia...

My sincerest apology for the problems with your B-1.
Recording a live ensemble performance of professional musicians is a big job for the most seasoned pro.
The task of recording a gaggle of children on a shoestring budget, in an unforgiving acoustical environment with limited recording experience and a defective microphone sounds like a colossal challenge.
I would like to speak with you directly, if possible. My number is listed below.

Sincerely,

Brent Casey
Studio Projects Microphones
877-563-6335
Brent@pmiaudio.com

Originally posted by Julia
Thanks very much to all of you for your responses. I appreciate your guidance.

By the way...I was originally going to buy the B3, but was pointed by several people toward the B1 instead, due to potential phasing issues, etc. I was originally thinking about encircling a B3 with children to record them thusly, but opted for the B1 after receiving much appreciated advice on this board.

Anyway...today's the last day of recording...we'll see what happens. Frankly, I'm amazed that children so young (and so tiny!) could pop on a pair of headphones and sing! I thought those headphones would end up being a total nightmare. Not so at all. A credit to the wee ones, bless their little hearts.

Oh...to someone who told me that 80% of little kids sing WAY off pitch when they raise their little voices up...umm...good point. True as can be. Still precious, however. Precious, indeed.

THanks again.

Julia

[DJL]

Hey Julia, give Brent Casey a call. He's most likey got some good idea's for you, and maybe he will up-grade your faulty B1 to a B3. Oh, and your B1 mic is the only bad B1 that I've heard of, I'm sure there has been a few others (broken when shipping, etc)... but, I bet not many of them. I own several Studio Projects mic's and they all work great.

[jeap]

who has been recommending single pattern cardioid mics for group vocals?

i want names so ill know who to reprimand!!!

wow what a great idea! have the guy do a free upgrade to the B3!!! i second that motion!!!

[deadleafecho]

Originally posted by jeap
who has been recommending single pattern cardioid mics for group vocals?

i want names so ill know who to reprimand!!!

wow what a great idea! have the guy do a free upgrade to the B3!!! i second that motion!!!

Lol Mr Caseys gotta hate that......Hey while your at it upgrade the b1 that im buying after xmas to a b3 or better!

[Julia]

Well, the thing still rattles, and didn't really do a good job of recording the kids at all. I took the mic to a music store, and the gent there told me that it sounds as though something (like a small screw) is loose inside the mic. Not being a STudio Projects dealer, they didn't want to mess with it, nor did I want them to do so, but he did turn the mic upside down a couple of times and the "loose piece" seemed to lodge somewhere, at least momentarily. Still, he feels the performance has to be affected somewhat.

As for Brent Casey, I emailed him and called, leaving a message, but have never heard back from him. His note to me on this board looked promising, (see above) but...being that we're just a poor little elementary school with a highly limited music program budget (i.e. whatever I can spare out of my own personal pocket)...he might not have seen a response worthwhile.

Thanks again for all of the advice sent my way during my little trial and error project with the children. By the way...they were WONDERFUL as far as the wearing of the headphones was concerned. And felt pretty cool, all in all, in our little "makeshift recording studio" in the school library.

Thanks again, and happy new year.

Julia

[Julia]

Jeap wrote:

the B3 would have been a better choice for group vocals. a cardiod pattern is too tight. a lot of the voices will be off axis and will be attenuated and degraded. the B3 has an omni pattern.

I wanted to note that jeap was correct about this matter. I was originally going to go with the B3, but the money was an issue, and I did receive advice suggesting that the B1 would probably do fine, so I opted thusly. Regretfully, in retrospect.

Jeap also wrote:

for that matter the behringer ecm8000 would suit you well. its an omnidirectional mic for about 40 bucks.

Hindsight being 20/20 and all, this might have been the better choice, all things considered.

All good advice, and thanks again very much, friends.

Julia

[laptoppop]

Originally posted by Julia
he might not have seen a response worthwhile.

Or maybe he's celebrating the holidays <grin> I'd cut the guy a little slack this time of year.

On the other hand, its great to hear that all things considered, your sessions went well. It says a lot about your recording demeanor with the kids! I personally think that the "mood" or "vibe" or "spirit" of the recording counts as much as many of the technical aspects.

The Behringer *might* have worked for you -- but the downside is that it really works best in a good sounding room. Being an omni, it pics up EVERYTHING. If the room sounds good, it works pretty darn well.

Please keep us posted as to how the mixdown goes. I'm sure there are several of us (like me) that would be willing to help out in that department.

-lee-

[DJL]

If I was you, I'd email Brent Casey again. Oh and you sould record the screw rattling around inside the fulty Studio Projects B1 mic (shake it like a tambourine. lol), just incase anyone wants to hear what a screwy Studio Projects B1 mic sounds like. lol. J/K

Originally posted by Julia
Well, the thing still rattles, and didn't really do a good job of recording the kids at all. I took the mic to a music store, and the gent there told me that it sounds as though something (like a small screw) is loose inside the mic. Not being a STudio Projects dealer, they didn't want to mess with it, nor did I want them to do so, but he did turn the mic upside down a couple of times and the "loose piece" seemed to lodge somewhere, at least momentarily. Still, he feels the performance has to be affected somewhat.

As for Brent Casey, I emailed him and called, leaving a message, but have never heard back from him. His note to me on this board looked promising, (see above) but...being that we're just a poor little elementary school with a highly limited music program budget (i.e. whatever I can spare out of my own personal pocket)...he might not have seen a response worthwhile.

Thanks again for all of the advice sent my way during my little trial and error project with the children. By the way...they were WONDERFUL as far as the wearing of the headphones was concerned. And felt pretty cool, all in all, in our little "makeshift recording studio" in the school library.

Thanks again, and happy new year.

Julia

[Julia]

Dear Lee,

Please keep us posted as to how the mixdown goes. I'm sure there are several of us (like me) that would be willing to help out in that department.

Do you really mean it? That would be FABULOUS, because I'm having BIG problems mixing all the hard work I did recording the children.

First, as you already know, I've spent an awful lot of money out of my own personal pocket on this project. More ... much more ... than I actually had...reverting, unfortunately, to credit cards. But seeing how important this project has been to the children, I have felt it important to do the best I can for them.

Now...that said, it looks like I'm going to have to buy some reference monitors with a flat response. AND they'll have to be powered, because of course I don't have an amp.

I've narrowed down to the Studiophile 5B's and the MAudio's, both with a price tag of $300. I know, I know...none of you pro guys would spare expense on decent reference monitors...but I just don't have the money, period. I have a credit card, and $300 is well more than I should be spending.

Trouble is, I'm otherwise attempting to mix with my computer's NEC sound system...small speakers...or some cheap Sony headphones. What I get when I raise the levels up on my tracks is distortion, and plenty of it.

It seems as though if I play a SINGLE TRACK, I'm not getting distortion (I made sure to allow no clipping when actually recording)....but when I combine the vocal tracks (I have a group of kids on track 1, and another group of kids on track 2, a soloist on track 3, etc.)...that is when the distortion occurs. And yes, I'm panning the tracks so they're not all playing into one field.

So...what do you think about the reference monitors? Can you assist me with that? I know that if I simply keep my levels low when mixing so as to avoid distortion, I'll end up with a recording way too low for comfort.

Thank you very much indeed for your offer to help. I appreciate it immensely.

Julia

[maskedman72]

if your final mix is going to be mastered than you can mix the levels low(not to low) and they can be brought back up in the mastering.
if budget is a concern with the monitors i would mix with headphones.

[deadleafecho]

Originally posted by Julia
First, as you already know, I've spent an awful lot of money out of my own personal pocket on this project. More ... much more ... than I actually had...reverting, unfortunately, to credit cards. But seeing how important this project has been to the children, I have felt it important to do the best I can for them.

Julia

Heh im just curious, dont these kids have parents with credit cards?

Anyway, im no guru, but generally if you have 2 tracks of the same thing, and play them together, it gets louder! IE if you have 2 tracks that individually ride around -9 to -3 db lets say, playing them together would push them possibly into clipping. Panning them goes a long way towards fixing this, but if the 2 tracks are riding really hot (-3 to -0 db) you still might have to back off the levels. Of course all of this is moot without a decent way to monitor them, which im still working on my self =/

[Julia]

Thank you.

As an update to my previous post, I have just tried hooking my BR-1180CD up to my home stereo system, and I don't get the distortion any longer. It actually sounds pretty darned good, (despite the fact that amidst 170 children there are a bunch who cannot carry a tune in a bucket, God love 'em.)

So, I realize that it is ineffective to mix using a home stereo system, but if anyone has any guidance in this regard, perhaps I can get along with that for this project? Or is that WAY off base. I know a home stereo system enhances things, but I also don't play around much with the 1180's EQ's, etc...I just pan and sometimes add a tad of reverb or delay and that's about it.

I know you're all laughing yourselves silly reading this, but what can I tell ya? I'm a writer, not a record producer!

THanks again for all your thoughts.

Julia

[deadleafecho]

best thing i think you can do, is once you have a mix down, play it in as many systems as possible. That holds true even when using good monitors, but its a way for me( i use Roland MA-8 micro monitors atm, not flat but better for music than any computer speaker type thing) to check for any possible unbalances.....different systems may accentuate different things......anyway beats spending $300 i dont have yet! heh