Hunting the Violin sound...

[James Argo]

...guys, it's been a week I want to make different music than I usually do. This time I do New Age thing. I record the MIDI piano great. MIDI Pad & MIDI backing strings as well. Here we go... capturing the lead violin. I play the violin myself, even since I'm not that pro, but it just to fit the song I made. The whole songs melody is played by violin. I have several good refference such like Secret Garden, Yanni, Jean Luc Ponty, etc... and I was trying to capture the sound close to them. Anyway, I don't have a thousands $ gear they do. Not even a propher violin. Just average acoustic violin (Hofner) with pickup Fishman SV-100. I have Korg AX-30G (...yup, guitar FX), Mackie 1202, and several homer gear. I've spent a weekfull in my home studio, trying to capture the caracter of electric violin using my acoustic violin... can't even get close. Tried to mic it (using SM57), still doesn't work. Sometime the bowing is rough, or get too "metal" sound. There's not much Violin engineer in town I can ask for suggestion. So I'll ask here, what's your comment to get an "Electric" violin sound using Acoustic violin ? I don't think I'm gonna buy anything in addition, just use my present gear, and try to get as close as possible. Any comment I would consider to be my next experiment to try. If any of you had any experience to work with bowed string instrument, would you please to share your secret here ? Thank you so much, I appreciate those...

[petimar]

I can't help with an electric violin sound, but a better acoustic violin tone is often a matter on not micing on axis to the f holes. My favorite mic placement is over the headstock at the height of the top of my head pointed at my chin, usually using a ribbon mic.

I know from playing live where the pickup is placed (if it is a piezo type) is very important to the sound. Also, with you playing a not so good violin and maybe being not so good a player, you might not get a good sound

[The Green Hornet]

Yo Argonaut:

I have some great patches on a Yamaha DX7 ROM cartridge. Of course I refer to violin/string patches.

I could put them on tape and send them to you but I don't know if you have a sampler to redo the patches; as a matter of fact, if you don't have a DX7, I don't know exactly how I could get these sounds to you.

If you know, let me know.

Green Hornet

[lucid]

i have captured some beautiful violon sounds.
we wanted a very ambient feel. violin over soft, finger picked "jumpy" electric guitars. so, i had the violinist sit on the floor (nice wooden floor, lots of nice reflections). then, i positioned one ECM8000 about 2 or 3 feet from the violin from right above it. Then i put another ECM8000 about 6 feet away in a corner near the ceiling. managed to get a beautiful sound. try and get your hands on a pair of ECM8000s and see what you can do. and no, i didn't have amazing pres. just the shitty ones on my behringer mixer it can be done...

[hrn]

Hi,
Try to plug your pickup into a Pod, Rocktron, Gp-100 or something equalent. Try different sounds and maybe you can find it here.

Have a listen to our band using an electric violin through a Rocktron Voodo Valve at www.hagen.nu

Hans

[James Argo]

Originally posted by The Green Hornet
Yo Argonaut:

I have some great patches on a Yamaha DX7 ROM cartridge. Of course I refer to violin/string patches.

I could put them on tape and send them to you but I don't know if you have a sampler to redo the patches; as a matter of fact, if you don't have a DX7, I don't know exactly how I could get these sounds to you.

If you know, let me know.

Green Hornet

Yo Hornet:
DX7 patches made me horny... ouuuuch...

[James Argo]

Hmmm, So far I'm getting closer to my specific sound. Thanks Petimar for the idea, it worked great, I replace the pickup position, it used to be about snaped in the bridge, below the G string. I replace to snap below E string... I was affraid, thought it will tend to capture more "high" and sharp, but I was wrong... Yess... the sound becomes more mild, melow and gentle. The low part of the violin (String G & D) ain't doin' so good before, -sounds too acoustic-, but now I can capture it just perfect balanced to sound I get on the highest part ( String A & E ). I also make an experience with mic replacement like Petimar mentioned, it gave me another dimension of sound, but not quite what I look for by now. May be some other time I'll consider this miking technic. And since I hunt specific certain sound, I think it needs special mic also, rather than SM57 / SM 58. Now I don't use mic, just the pick up.

Hans, I used to just route the pickup to Mackie, then I tried plug it to Korg AX-300 (...that's all I got for now ) to use it's preamp. And though it's for electric guitar, it works better than Mackie (in a certain view). And thanks for the link. That's cool.

Keep goin' with your opinion guys...

[tmix]

I play in a Celtic World beat band where the Violinist plays an electric violin. He has one of those piezo bridges and it really works great. If you don't want to spend any $$ for a new bridge I have recorded his acoustic from underneath (about 18" to 2ft below) and 1-2 ft in front of the headstock with a good condensor mic and got a very resonable facsimile. You have to get away from the F-holes and bow sounds to get a more electric sound.

t-mix

[lucid]

oh you aren't using mics!? oops sorry! well, all i can say then is try and get a pair of ECM8000s! they are nice and cheap too...

[James Argo]

Originally posted by tmix
You have to get away from the F-holes and bow sounds to get a more electric sound.

Aaah, you got the point. The F-holes and bow sound, that's exactly what I don't want to take.

Hey Lucid, I avoid mic, cause I don't have any propher mic for violin. I dunno, but I only have a couple of SM57, 4 mic SM58, Rhode NT, and several cheap mic at my home studio. I wish I have better ones. But may be I'll try miking again tomorow...

[hrn]

James,
Can the Korg AX-300 simulate a guitar amp? That's what you need I think.

Hans

[James Argo]

Originally posted by hrn
James,
Can the Korg AX-300 simulate a guitar amp? That's what you need I think.

Yes indeed, hans. It has the Amp sim, but I noticed it adds noise in decent level whether I turn it on. It's an old stuff...

[lucid]

behringer ECM8000... cheap. very cheap.

[petimar]

My favorite pickup for fiddle is the Shirtler guitar pickup. It gives a pretty natural acoustic tone. For a more electric tone try the Zeta type pickups. You'd probably get the best results with a solid body instrument.

As I go for the most acoustic sound possible, I've found that most any piezo pickup usually just sound like a combination of a bad acoustic and bad electric instrument. the best of these I've found is the Pickup Of The World.

[James Argo]

Thanks for the info guys, specially petimar . Now I can get the closest sound I look for (consider the lack of gear), and about to make an adjustment and editing. I couldn't wait untill it's mixing done and post the result in clinic.


Cheers.
Jaymz.

[christiaan]

Originally posted by lucid
behringer ECM8000... cheap. very cheap.

Okay, Lucid. Let us hear those recordings.

[lucid]

see... slight problem... it was a project started, and got kinda messed... so the guitars are off... and then the violinist left so we coudln't redo it. i can post the violin tracks if you guys show me how

[James Argo]

...Hey lucid, get sign in www.nowhereradio.com there you can upload your song to be reviewed. All in mp3 format. Post your link here or in the clinic, so we can get to your page. I curious where's DavidK when we need him the most...?

[kalvinator]

Firstly, use a condenser, large diaphram very nice.

Find a tight room, either dead or fairly bright like a bath room, but not inbetween, or you will get a sound that is indefinite. Make sure there is not too much reverb in bathroom.

In dead room, on a stan, place the condenser facing the player and violin, about 3 foot away, you will then get a close, full tone sound.

In bathroom, place the mic about 2 foot away, you will get a nice lively sound but still get the full body.

If u go too close, you have to know what you are doing to place the mic correctly. The big pros use distance and an appropriate room.

To get the electric sound, once recorded, insert a tube guitar amp simulator on that track but minimise the gain. You dont want to hear the distortion, but you want the edge, it will compress a little, but the pickup sound is basically going thru circuitry, which always usually has a ever so slight distortion to it, but definitely edgy sound.

Lastly, to get rid of that bow sound, you need to just use better technique.

This should work.

A dynamic isnt that great, the violin usually doesnt put out enuff sound pressure level to make the mic work, plus most dynamics dont capture the brilliance an instrument such as a violin puts out.

cheers

[James Argo]

...Yo kalvinator, Thank you so much for that !!! That's the best reply I get in this thread. So clear, plain, logic and understoodable. I tried that technic last night, and amazed on how I get the sound. It works even with my cheap violin. I've got both dead room (drums booth) and bathroom not that far from my mixing desk, so I can do your suggest just fine.

Okay, now I'm in the bathroom playing the violin... now, who's gonna push the rec button in console room ?

Kiddin' ya...

[lucid]

ok. here it is. i left the bass and guitars in because the violin sounds funny without them. so, here is the disclaimer. this is not a finished product. it hasn't even been mixed properly. the guitars are off tempo and the bass tries to stay off tempo with the guitars and makes a mess of it sometimes. we were going to redo the song with a click track but the violinist left and we couldn't. sucks, but shit happens.

BTW sorry about the size of the file. i had to encode it at 192kpbs because anything under that caused the song to have weird, high pitched sounds in it that i cannot explain.

equipment:
guitars: fender telecaster (american) through a fender twin reverb, mic'd with an sm57 slightly off axis, 5" away and an ECM8000 in the room for ambience. fender strat (active pickups, american) through a small ashton 40watt solid state amp. sm57 on axis about 2" away. all mic's through behringer mixer.

bass: ibanez soundgear straight into a behringer mixer

violin: two ECM8000s, both through behringer mixer.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/lucid/singles

song is called "E Minor Bells"

[lucid]

ok things got messed up and they cut off my account. damn. here is the new one.

http://www.nowhereradio.com/nihome/singles

[James Argo]

Good work lucid. Thought I have to play the track over and over to get it clear (the bass is a bit too muddy I think...) but I can get the idea clear. Wish I can listen to many violin geeks piece of work here, for comparing and learn more of it. Thank's...

[lucid]

the bass is too muddy. was just a scratch track that we never redid. take the whole song with many grains of salt really; it is far from perfect. but thanks otherwise...

[lucid]

anyone else?