Gettign good bass sound

[nicolaad30]

I haven't been able to get a final good bass guitar soundig. When I hear the bass track playing solo, it sounds nice, but when I make all tracks sound together, the bass is the one that I can't recognize even though it has a high level. Why does this happen?...

[Tukkis]

Its because the bass is sharing frequencies. For instance it shares similar frequencies with the kick drum. So you might boost a few frequencies in kick drum but then cut the same frequencies in the bass guitar.

Use this technique for all your mixing not just bass/kick.

Tukkis

[VotaIdiota]

a big rule for ANY instrument in a mix..

if it sounds great soloed, it probably sounds like shit when you bring in all the other instruments.

[Tukkis]

Good point made by VotaIdiota.

If your bass or any instrument for that matter sounds great by itself but sounds like crap in the mix then really you've acomplished nothing. You want it the other way around because in the end the listener doesn't care what each instrument sounds like by itself but rather what the whole mix sounds like with everything together.

Good luck and have fun!
Tukkis

[Raydio]

C'mon guys, I have to be honest now. Basically, what I do is EQ my instruments while everything is playing and then solo the instrument just like everyone else. Just dont get confused when people say that more than likely if it sounds good by itself it has a good chance of being trash when played together. That only applies when you EQ the hell out of an instrument. If you use your EQ wisely, most of the time you wont hear a big difference in sound, solo'ed or all together. The whole point is to just use a few decibels of EQ, mainly cutting frequencies in your case. Another thing that may help you is this plugin by Waves called "Maxxbass"; it usually comes in their Native Bundles, which are worth the investment. This plugin by it self can do wonders for your Bass, not just helping it sit better in the mix, but giving it that extra thudd sound you need! Hope this helps, not trying to knock anyone's technique, but thats just my opinion.

[Ethan Winer]

Raydio,

> but when I make all tracks sound together, the bass is the one that I can't recognize even though it has a high level. Why does this happen? <

This is due to frequency masking effects. One good trick I've used is to send all tracks except the bass to one output buss in Sonar, and the bass to another buss. Then cut 300 Hz. by one or two dB. on the music mix buss, and boost 300 Hz. by a similar amount on the bass track or buss. A little boost and cut goes a long way, and this is a tried and true technique that works on other instrument combinations too.

For example, if the lead vocal is not clear even though it's plenty loud, try cutting 1 KHz. on all tracks but the vocal, and then boost 1 KHz. on the vocal track only. Or 1.5 KHz. or 2 KHz. The idea is to experiment to find where the vocal track is clearest, then cut that frequency a little on all other tracks.

--Ethan

[PhilMckracken]

Now that is some great information and an intelligent use of EQ. The only thing I don't get is, are you trying to say that as a general rule, if the instrument sounds great alone it won't sound great in the mix. I have found that keeping the parts clean and uncluttered also goes a long way but I am anxious to try some of these EQ techniques.

[Tukkis]

The only thing I don't get is, are you trying to say that as a general rule, if the instrument sounds great alone it won't sound great in the mix.

No what Ethan is trying to say it don't spend all your time and effort trying to get a specific instrument sounding good on it's own because really you and the listener only care about what the whole mix sounds like with all the tracks put together.

So you should boost some frequencies in one track and then cut the same frequencies in the others. This will emphazise that instrument.

Tukkis

[darrin_h2000]

Dont do rythem guitar parts using the 5th and 6th string. dont play keys you would use the left hand on. when those frequencies are shared you just get mudd.

[Scooter B]

To further elaborate on Tukkis point of frequency sharing what he is describing is "frequency scuplting" leaving room for specific instruments to shine and not comptete with each other.

Another aspect I have read about is "sonic headroom" in the bass frequencies.

I have not had the right equipment to do this yet but the concept as I understand it recomends cutting all bass frequencies during tracking except for your bass and bass drums etc. When micing vocal and non bass intruments use a bass roll off on the mic if available...if not available on the mic then use the preamp or mixer. High pass filters (on many preamps) seem to be preferable to cutting with a shelving EQ but cutting with the shelving EQ is better than nothing.

I don't understand the technical issues clearly enough to explain it well but from what I understand it seems that recording multiple tracks of non-bass instruments without intentionally cutting the bass frequencies can eat up you low frequency headroom even if the tracked instruments don't produce low frequencies.

Several people on the thread where this was discussed reported significant improvement after cutting the recording of low bass out from all non bass tracks.

I plan to start doing this on all my stuff when I get my AW16G in February.

[toadies]

I always pull everything down, on the tracks, start snare and kick at about -2db or so, then raise bass guitar and get the kick and bass sounds good together with out draining the snare. Use EQ wisely. I uselly cut the kick about -8db, scroll across the freq range till i find that sound i want, then set the db about -3 or -4.
then i work the bass to sit with it.

Start raising all the inturments till everything sits good. Also make sure you don't forget about vocals, i do that all the time.

I learned about maxxbass, don't use both on kick and bass guitar.

[auburncatfish]

I have the same problem with bass guitar and acoustic guitar. Since I prefer a naturally bassy guitar, it interferes with the actual bass guitar. Can you compensate with different frequencies while still keeping both "bassy"?

[JamesBond]

My suggestion would be to use a Sansamp direct box. Plug your bass or guitar into the box and then your box into your recorder. This is what alot of the "pros" use.

[Toki987]

I`ve found that subtractive eq'ing clears up mud between the bass drum and bass nicely, instead of pushing the envelope to try and make one stand out. SLowly subtracting in the 80 to 120 area on the bass actually allows the reduction to appear as gain on the bass drum in that area and vice-versa. It cleans the two up, if done carefully. Instruments Sharing low frequencies and each having a different attack signature causes a big fat bulge in that frequency area. Shaving off on one a little allows the initial attack of each to stand out more. Does that make sense to anybody?

[Cyrokk]

Originally posted by auburncatfish
Since I prefer a naturally bassy guitar, it interferes with the actual bass guitar. Can you compensate with different frequencies while still keeping both "bassy"?

My natural inclination when recording any non-bass guitar is to bring up the lows. But I never indulge in the temptation, because then when the instruments are brought together you hear the mud so you back it off the guitars, and with the de-emphasis of the mids and highs, you just lost the tone of your instrument.

If you treat the guitar as the mid-range instrument it really is, utilizing all its frequencies, then you don't have any considerable problem with bass/guitar low-end conflicts, even when most of your riffing is on the lower 5th and 6th strings. You can always cut the mid-range when mixing, and you'll even find that you won't need to cut that much..

Also, sometimes the bass won't be the problem. A kick recorded improperly or untuned can wreak havoc on the low end, especially when you are under the impression that the bass is too muddy.

Cy

[chessrock]

Originally posted by auburncatfish
I have the same problem with bass guitar and acoustic guitar. Since I prefer a naturally bassy guitar, it interferes with the actual bass guitar. Can you compensate with different frequencies while still keeping both "bassy"?

That's really the million dollar question, there. And if the answer were simple, then it would most likely be published, widely-shared knowlege by now. The fact that there are several different ways to go about this, and most involve simple trial and error, is why there are guys getting paid big (and not-so-big) dollars to mix professionally . . . and why there are guys like us on homerecording.com.

That said, I've stumbled upon a few simple ideas that do the trick for me:

* Always boost around 800 hz on the bass. I know this is going to get me in to trouble with some of the literalists out there, but I'm telling you, boost it, even if it's just a little.

* Multiband compression as opposed to high-pass filtering (bass-cutting).

Simple bass cutting/rolloffs will make guitars sound thinner, to an extent. There's no way around it. Compressing certain frequencies and freq. ranges( rather than cutting them) will tame problem areas and set limits. The result is a much better behaved low end as opposed to a greatly reduced one.

* Cut only the low frequencies on the accoustic guitar that create mud and/or interfere with the bass guitar. That might be a lot of them. But usually, there will be a narrower band that, when boosted, will restore some balls to the guitar without mucking too much with the bass. This will be your magic "Accoustic Guitar balls-restorer" frequency.

Start out with a steep rolloff somewhere around 400-500 hz, and maybe another deeper one starting somewhere around 100-150 hz (Dont' apply it yet. ).

Then, find your "balls frequency," and restore it. It's sort of like digging for hidden treasure. Sometimes it's there, but sometimes it's not, and sometimes it's fools-gold, so exercise caution.

Note: 250 hz often does the trick for me. Be careful, as the snare is usually around 200, and anything above 250 is mud territory so be careful not to get sucked in.

[kalvinator]

If you have your bass sounding ok with the kick, then it would be the go to clean up the guitars in the bass domain, especially between 200hz and 500hz

guitars are the biggets invasion to the bass spectrum in my opinion

cheers

[Tukkis]

guitars are the biggets invasion to the bass spectrum in my opinion

Good point. Guitar lows should be just about cut out alltogether. The bass and kick are there for the lows so cut like kalvinator said in the low mids. This will keep the bass clear and the guitar clear = great sounding mix.

Tukkis

p.s.- kalvinator, welcome to the board. Which part of Brisbane are you from?

[auburncatfish]

Alright, as much as I hate to say it. The guitar is an invador into the bass spectrum. I'm gonna try adjusting the mids more than the bass and see how it sounds. Chances are (I know) the bass won't be there on the guitar like I like it. But maybe the mix'll be better for it.

[Matt303]

I had a simillar problem, the bass had no presence in the mix. In the end I found that the live sound used by the bass player did not contain any frequencies in the mid range. This sounded fine live but not for recording.
Try this, Make sure that the mid range EQ is responsive with the source you are using before your commit to tape (hard disc or whatever). Dont worry too much about the recorded sound at that stage. At least then after you place the sound in a mix you have some scope to adjust the EQ. I understand compression can also help although I have never found I needed it.