Getting that full rich vocal sound

[dvs recordings]

Well it has been frustrating trying to get that nice full sound from the vocals tracks. My ap is mixing vocals into pre recorded audio (karaoke) I have been able to lay the vocals in the mix pretty good, but I cannot get that rich full sound on the vocals that you hear on the pro CD's. They sound so deep.The music that I use has been already mastered and sounds great. I am all digital and I am wondering... could this be the problem. Must I go to tape to achieve what I want?

If you can bear with me I have some more questions, if not thanks for reading this far.

1.When I add reverb to the vocal track or tracks only, they seem to be doing the backstroke in that big imaginary swimming pool. I am being quite careful on the amount I use.What type of reverbs if any are best? Should reverb be added after the final bounce to two track or to the vocal track or tracks before the final bounce?And do the big boy studios use chorus for that full sound on the vocals?

2.When doubling vocal tracks, how many times do the pros layer the vocals and should you use the singer or computer to do this. How much delay in ms and how much db do you reduce each following track by? any rule of thumbs as I know every recording is different

I have a Sony c48 condenser mic which I have been told is a good mic . Not a Neuman but good and quite accurate. I would like to send one of my recordings to one of you more experienced people by email. If someone would be willing to listen to it and tell me what I may be doing incorrectly and what I may be missing. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I am not trying to think I can compete with studios that have millions tied up in recording gear, but I would like to get somewhat close to that sound.Sorry for the long winded question it has been a while. Thanks for your patience.

DVS

[tubedude]

Start with: nice full voice
My guess is your chain sucks. Actually, I would bet the ranch on it.
What are you using?

[Vurt]

Try using short delay times rather than reverb. It works wonders.

[littledog]

All these things contribute greatly to the "size" and overall quality of your vocal sound:

•the voice itself, and the singing technique
•Size and ambient characteristics of the recording space
•the microphone
•Distance from microphone (closer sounds fuller, with more bass frequencies on most mics)
•the preamp
•the compressor
•EQ
•the converters and bit depth (if digital) or the tape characteristics (width, speed, formulation)
•effects (like reverb and delay) quality, and how skillfully they are applied
•engineering techniques like multiple tracking

Some of these factors may not apply to a particular project (not every vocal track needs EQ, or will be double tracked, for instance).

It will be hard to match the quality of a pro studio for every single one of the above factors. What is important is to try and identify the worst or weakest link(s) from the above list, and focus on improving or upgrading that parameter. It will be, to some extent, a never ending process. Run and escape now before it's too late!!!

[Shailat]

Welll little dog explained to you why you should forget the pro sound for now.

Let me see if I can help you get a bit closer towards the sound you want.

To answer question #1 - You might just need a slight adjustment to the pre delay on your reverb. Try starting from 30 and going upwards untill you like what you hear. You might be choosing the wrong type of reverb. What are you using. Tell me in room type and what is the style of the song. You might be setting it to wet.
How are you hooking it up...on the track on through a aux.?

As to question #2 - Like everything else it depends.....If the singer can swing a second take then I tend to go for it. If he can't or I dont want that kind of sound I'll go for a delay type of double. About how to set it up....I posted a long explanation somewere a few days ago but I can't remember were...use the search button.

Read this article on reverb as well as searching a thread from sonusman about reverb ...http://24.61.194.88/ Some days its up some days it's not....

[chessparov]

dvs, you may want to use the same process I've decided to use.
It's much easier to just do the initial tracking, then bring your tracks to a professional studio to be properly mixed and if desired,
mastered, along with any studio enhancements.

Once you have the "professional version" as a reference point,
you could use the resources at your disposal to try to get it
as close as possible on your own as a learning experience.

In general, not using any compression on the backing tracks,
and using minimal (if any) compression on the lead vocal will
keep more options to further improve the recordings for the
studio. The same goes for reverb, EQ, and other effects.

Chris

[Hard2Hear]

I just got some great advise on mixing pop-vocals. It's a little trick that just might work for you. This was meant for Pro Tools, but you can probably apply it to your situation.

I doubt Pro Tools is the problem. I also have to wonder if it is the mic and pre. I think it is mix technique. Here is a trick that might give you what you want.

In Pro Tools make a duplicate of the vocal track. Next squish the life out of the duplicate track. I mean compress it waaaay toooo much. 12 dB of compression at a 2/1 ratio is nice. Now pull up an eq and find some high frequencies that sound nice in the 8k to 16k range and boost them a lot. 7 or 8 dB is a great start. Now de-ess the track so it does not rip your ears off. Adjust the delay with the Time Adjuster plug in on the original track so that you will not have phase problems when you blend the two tracks together. Turn the volume down on the squished track and set the original vocal so it sits good in the mix. Now blend in the hyped track to taste.

This is how mixers make pop vocals sit forward in so many mixes you love. It also helps to set up separate tracks with different eq's and effects for the chorus and verses. There are more tricks to vocal mixing like this, but you will have to find those on your own.

This was in a guy who does some serious engineering for heavy hitters in Nashville, give it a try and let us know your results!

H2H

[Hard2Hear]

Originally posted by tubedude
Start with: nice full voice
My guess is your chain sucks. Actually, I would bet the ranch on it.
What are you using?

He said a Sony C48, which is a pretty nice mic...I mean, we're not talking a C-1 here.


Oh, and as far as doubling. The producers I work with like doubling and stacking ALOT, too much for my taste, actually (listen to PM Dawn or Blessid Union for their work, or you can listen to our newest which is stacked, too FLY ) but it is ALWAYS done by singing multiple times. You just sing it again and again and again....until it is perfect. We will typically spend 8 hours at least on 1 song for the lead vocals. You just have to be willing to give the time and effort it takes to make a good recording.

H2H

[Middleman]

Hard2Hear

This was in a guy who does some serious engineering for heavy hitters in Nashville, give it a try and let us know your results!

This is a very good tip and the results are remarkable. It does exactly what you said. Puts the vocal out in front in a very clear way. Thanks.

[dvs recordings]

Originally posted by Hard2Hear
I just got some great advise on mixing pop-vocals. It's a little trick that just might work for you. This was meant for Pro Tools, but you can probably apply it to your situation.



This was in a guy who does some serious engineering for heavy hitters in Nashville, give it a try and let us know your results!

H2H

Hey H2H, thanks for the advice. Although I am not overly familiar with the Eq side of things yet. When you say.." find a nice high freq. and boost it 7-8 db"... sorry you lost me there. Can you explain a little further in newbie terms. I do not know how to find that nice freq or what to look for.

As well, how much delay can I use on the second track...20 ms good enough?

DVS

[chessrock]

What he means by "nice" high frequency is one that will not exaggerate or bring out anything harsh or nasty. If you boost the wrong frequency, you could wind up with some really shrill esses, t's, and other consonant sounds, etc etc.

What you gotta' do is "sweep." Boost a high frequency and move it up and down untill you find something not-annoying. I guess that's the best way I can put it newb terms.

A good starting point would probably be 12 khz. Boost that by like 10 db. If it sounds really nasty, then move it up to about 15 or 16 db, untill you find something that doesn't sound as ugly . . . and then bring the level down untill you're only boosting like 2-4 db at the most.

[Hard2Hear]

IF you're using a graphic EQ, it would look something like this:


It's ok to be harsh sounding, it works better, that's why the next step is de-essing the track

H2H

[dvs recordings]

But as you said earlier H2H just de ess the second heavily compressed track, just away to take away the nasties..?. What do you think about stacking the vocals and panning left and right at lets say 25 to 50%. When I recorded in mono on the first track and then duplicated it twice with the software and did not pan either the sound was crackling or sounding harsh... Can you tell me why. Is it distortion I am hearing. Thanks for all the good advice.

DVS

[scottboyher]

You are getting that harsh sound prolly cause of the phase cancelation. When you double the exact same recording you are acually increasing the volume and nothing else. Maybe?

[Middleman]

To all,

Why, when I clone a vocal track, do I get phase problems? Is this my software or some other reason?

Also, is there a regular timing offset I can apply to a cloned track to make it line up with the original, or are the results higly variable?

[dvs recordings]

So what would be the best way to eliminate the phase cancellation? Pan the following tracks equally? I will be definitely trying what H2H mentioned earlier. By the way my Pre amp is the new Studio Projects VTB-1 with the Delta 44 MidiMman soundcard.

DVS

[TexRoadkill]

There is no point in cloning tracks if you want them to be played at the same time. All it does is make the track a little louder at the cost of extra resources on your computer. Just turn the track up for the same effect. The reason you get distortion is because the level is now too high.

[Hard2Hear]

There is no point in cloning tracks if you want them to be played at the same time. All it does is make the track a little louder at the cost of extra resources on your computer. Just turn the track up for the same effect. The reason you get distortion is because the level is now too high.

IF you do nothing to make the tracks different, this is true, the 2 tracks do increase the volume and you have to turn them down, and it's pretty much useless. BUT, if you change one of the tracks like described above, well, try it and listen to the results.

So what would be the best way to eliminate the phase cancellation? Pan the following tracks equally? I will be definitely trying what H2H mentioned earlier.

It depends on your software. Depending on what you use, if there are phase issues, you can move the track by # of samples that your soundcard is set to use for its latency. But if it is an off-line clone of a track, you usually won't see these issues because we're not running out and back in through the hardware, but again it depends on the software.
If I run a vocal track out and through a pre or something and back into the computer, then we have to re-align the tracks by sample. But this is not doing that, it's easier.

Why, when I clone a vocal track, do I get phase problems? Is this my software or some other reason?
Also, is there a regular timing offset I can apply to a cloned track to make it line up with the original, or are the results higly variable?

It's in the software if it does it. Again, it can be fixed by shifting by # of samlpes. Just shift the track back that # of samples (which are a tiny amount). Most software can do this, I am not familiar wnough with all software to know how in each type.

But as you said earlier H2H just de ess the second heavily compressed track, just away to take away the nasties..?. What do you think about stacking the vocals and panning left and right at lets say 25 to 50%.

yes, you compress, add eq, and then you basically limit out the harshness with a de-esser. Keep in mind this is basically an "effects" track, so it will not sound good on its own.

Stacking and panning will result in a different sound all together. It just depends on which sound you are looking for. This is what stacking will sound like (our last song FLY ) listen to the chorus, that is stacking.

Use your ears, that will always be your best refrence.

H2H

[Middleman]

Hard2Hear,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. So if my sound card latency is 5ms then I would move my cloned sample back in time by approx. 5ms? Is this what you are saying?

Also, I have been playing around with the above technique and realized it can be used to increase or decrease the breathiness of the vocal by setting up another track to control the breath factor (Good for ballads and slower things) in the low telephone sound range.

Regarding the prescence this technique provides, for my voice, I fell just below 8Khz at around 7.5Khz for the sweet spot. I am a baritone so your 8-16 target was a tad high.

Once again great tip.

[dvs recordings]

H2H, thanks for the reply. So I would still add the compression to the original vocal track the way you would normally. If I understand you correctly could still add reverb or delays to the vocals after using this effects technique. Another question.. Lets say you have more than one track of vocals done by computer, do you add delay to the original or duplicated tracks? This may be a silly question to some but the truth is I 'm not sure.

DVS

[dvs recordings]

Originally posted by Shailat
Welll little dog explained to you why you should forget the pro sound for now.

Let me see if I can help you get a bit closer towards the sound you want.

To answer question #1 - You might just need a slight adjustment to the pre delay on your reverb. Try starting from 30 and going upwards untill you like what you hear. You might be choosing the wrong type of reverb. What are you using. Tell me in room type and what is the style of the song. You might be setting it to wet.
How are you hooking it up...on the track on through a aux.?

As to question #2 - Like everything else it depends.....If the singer can swing a second take then I tend to go for it. If he can't or I dont want that kind of sound I'll go for a delay type of double. About how to set it up....I posted a long explanation somewere a few days ago but I can't remember were...use the search button.

Read this article on reverb as well as searching a thread from sonusman about reverb ...http://24.61.194.88/ Some days its up some days it's not....

Have not been able to view sonusmans reverb info. Very knowledgeable guy. I know guys.. I'm feeding the ego, but heck the truth is the truth.

Anyways Shailat thanks for the reply... As far as my reverb settings.. The reverb is the Waves Reverb direct x plugin. I have been choosing Plate reverbs. My room is very quiet with the right amount of Prim-acoustic High density foam insulation. Followed their studio set up for a 10 x12 ft room. Real cool stuff but not too cheap either!!I am just doing vocals at this point.

The songs vary but most recently is a neighbour who sings country. My wetness has been set to 14 no higher than 20 with the room size on the plug in sying about 35 to 40. I must be honest with you though I have not ever used the pre delay. I n laymen terms what does it do?

Onto another topic.. what is the concensus out there on this product Auto- Tune?

[Shailat]

Originally posted by dvs recordings

Anyways Shailat thanks for the reply... As far as my reverb settings.. The reverb is the Waves Reverb direct x plugin. I have been choosing Plate reverbs. My room is very quiet with the right amount of Prim-acoustic High density foam insulation. Followed their studio set up for a 10 x12 ft room. Real cool stuff but not too cheap either!!I am just doing vocals at this point.

The songs vary but most recently is a neighbour who sings country. My wetness has been set to 14 no higher than 20 with the room size on the plug in sying about 35 to 40. I must be honest with you though I have not ever used the pre delay. I n laymen terms what does it do?

In Laymen terms its a time delay before the reverb is heard. First you hear it dry (the source) then the reverb kicks in. As soon as you hear the dry part first you get the feeling that the singer is close to you giving a upfront feeling. Then the reverbs kicks in to fill the sound depending on the room you choose. Thats a simplified explanation.
With a correct predelay setting your voice can sound rich but upfront. I would also set up and aux for the reverb and not on the track itself. SO you'll have one track of the dry vocals and the Aux with 100% wet reverb signal and then you can blend the two
to your likeing.

You really have to read up on setting the predelay and the decay time and the diffusion to get a good sound. To dial up a preset on the plugin just wont get you there. After that if you still arent getting what you need then I would move on to things like H2H's trick (a pretty good one !).

But it doesnt end there...to get a pro sound like on a cd you need
to work on correct compression for vocals as they will also effect your sound for example. If your vocal isnt focused well, then it will trick you into thinking you might need more reverb then you actualy need. You might think you need to beef it up with reverb so it will sound big when you might only need a drop of compression to focus it.
You need correct Eq on the vocals or else you might think that reverb will brighten it up with a plate reverb and swamp it to much and so on and so on.......forget the pro sound and take it day by day parameter by parameter.........

Did you go to that link I posted and read up?

[Shailat]

Originally posted by dvs recordings

Anyways Shailat thanks for the reply... As far as my reverb settings.. The reverb is the Waves Reverb direct x plugin. I have been choosing Plate reverbs. My room is very quiet with the right amount of Prim-acoustic High density foam insulation. Followed their studio set up for a 10 x12 ft room. Real cool stuff but not too cheap either!!I am just doing vocals at this point.

The songs vary but most recently is a neighbour who sings country. My wetness has been set to 14 no higher than 20 with the room size on the plug in sying about 35 to 40. I must be honest with you though I have not ever used the pre delay. I n laymen terms what does it do?

In Laymen terms its a time delay before the reverb is heard. First you hear it dry (the source) then the reverb kicks in. As soon as you hear the dry part first you get the feeling that the singer is close to you giving a upfront feeling. Then the reverbs kicks in to fill the sound depending on the room you choose. Thats a simplified explanation.
With a correct predelay setting your voice can sound rich but upfront. I would also set up and aux for the reverb and not on the track itself. SO you'll have one track of the dry vocals and the Aux with 100% wet reverb signal and then you can blend the two
to your likeing.

You really have to read up on setting the predelay and the decay time and the diffusion to get a good sound. To dial up a preset on the plugin just wont get you there. After that if you still arent getting what you need then I would move on to things like H2H's trick (a pretty good one !).

But it doesnt end there...to get a pro sound like on a cd you need
to work on correct compression for vocals as they will also effect your sound for example. If your vocal isnt focused well, then it will trick you into thinking you might need more reverb then you actualy need. You might think you need to beef it up with reverb so it will sound big when you might only need a drop of compression to focus it.
You need correct Eq on the vocals or else you might think that reverb will brighten it up with a plate reverb and swamp it to much and so on and so on.......forget the pro sound and take it day by day parameter by parameter.........

Did you go to that link I posted and read up?

[dvs recordings]

Thanks Shailat once again.. well put and easy to understand. I have not read your post yet but tonight after work I will. I will let you know how I made out. Can you use H2H idea as well as the pre delay info etc.. info you gave on the same vocals or would it be too much? Not sure

DVS

[dvs recordings]

Originally posted by Shailat


In Laymen terms its a time delay before the reverb is heard. First you hear it dry (the source) then the reverb kicks in. As soon as you hear the dry part first you get the feeling that the singer is close to you giving a upfront feeling. Then the reverbs kicks in to fill the sound depending on the room you choose. Thats a simplified explanation.
With a correct predelay setting your voice can sound rich but upfront. I would also set up and aux for the reverb and not on the track itself. SO you'll have one track of the dry vocals and the Aux with 100% wet reverb signal and then you can blend the two
to your likeing.

You really have to read up on setting the predelay and the decay time and the diffusion to get a good sound. To dial up a preset on the plugin just wont get you there. After that if you still arent getting what you need then I would move on to things like H2H's trick (a pretty good one !).

The pre delay and decay tips you gave me seemed to help things out alot . The vocals are no longer swimming. Not trying to be perfect... but I want it to sound pretty good. Thanks... I have been trying to search your posts but cannot connect to them. I will keep trying.

DVS



But it doesnt end there...to get a pro sound like on a cd you need
to work on correct compression for vocals as they will also effect your sound for example. If your vocal isnt focused well, then it will trick you into thinking you might need more reverb then you actualy need. You might think you need to beef it up with reverb so it will sound big when you might only need a drop of compression to focus it.
You need correct Eq on the vocals or else you might think that reverb will brighten it up with a plate reverb and swamp it to much and so on and so on.......forget the pro sound and take it day by day parameter by parameter.........

Did you go to that link I posted and read up? [/B]