Let's talk about Roland V-Drums...

[Blue Bear Sound]

...or any other electric kit in a similar vein.

The concept is solid. The patches/samples in the V-Drums in particular are actually quite good sounding - they track decently and a good drummer can make them sound pretty damn good..........

Until mixdown that is..........

.... when tracking these bitches, they sounded real nice - bass, a single rhythm track and maybe a vocal and the beds rock.... UNTIL YOU BRING THEM INTO A FULL MIX!!!! Then they fucking disappear!!!!!!!!! It's like they auto-compress or something - no punch, no life, no zip or zing!!! And I know it's the V-Drums because I actually heard a live band use them, and it had the same result - a drum solo sounded quite decent (although slightly artificial), but as soon as the band was in, they're gone!

My second beef with them is the cymbals/Hi-Hats... fuck if they don't sound lifeless and dead -- always the same decay and attack..........!

I'm on the 3rd re-mix of a track that has these mothers on it and fuck if I can't get the shit to sit right!!!!

Grrrr..............



Anyways, thanks for listening............!

[Henri Devill]

Have you tried playin' them{Stre. mix} back thru a PA..Move some air and mic the space..Maybe that will help some.


Don

[Badger]

Its all in your fingers man...

[Badger]

Originally posted by Henri Devill
Have you tried playin' them{Stre. mix} back thru a PA..Move some air and mic the space..Maybe that will help some.


Don

That kinda defeats the purpose....

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by Henri Devill
Have you tried playin' them{Stre. mix} back thru a PA..Move some air and mic the space..Maybe that will help some.


Don

Yeah... tried that... tried New York-style rhythm-bed compression... tried exciters and mild distortion.... tried twisting EQ knobs inside out (cuts/boosts/everything in-between).... the problem isn't so much the sound, more the dynamics compared to real drums - they simply don't cut properly in the mix... it's like they "thin out" when the all the other tracks are in.... (yes - I used an analyzer too - no obvious masking...!)

I'll get it... but fuck, it just shouldn't be this much trouble!!!!! The time you save in tracking setup for V-Drums vs. the time lost at mixdown trying to give them punch is no savings at all!!!!

And man.......... do I HATE those cymbals!!!! Not real at all!

[mixmkr]

how 'bout T-racks??


and I KNOW you haven't tried the BBTTE yet either! (or whatever the fuck it was...)


<------ hey!!....can ya see my new dog's penis??

[Badger]

Originally posted by Blue Bear Sound
Yeah... tried that... tried New York-style rhythm-bed compression... tried exciters and mild distortion.... tried twisting EQ knobs inside out (cuts/boosts/everything in-between).... the problem isn't so much the sound, more the dynamics compared to real drums - they simply don't cut properly in the mix... it's like they "thin out" when the all the other tracks are in.... (yes - I used an analyzer too - no obvious masking...!)

I'll get it... but fuck, it just shouldn't be this much trouble!!!!! The time you save in tracking setup for V-Drums vs. the time lost at mixdown trying to give them punch is no savings at all!!!!

And man.......... do I HATE those cymbals!!!! Not real at all!

Just think of it this way, once you figure out what to do, next time will be a breeze.

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by Bdgr
Just think of it this way, once you figure out what to do, next time will be a breeze.

Naw... artificial-sounding will ALWAYS be artificial-sounding, no matter how much you DSP to mask it!

[JuSumPilgrim]

Ive had similar problems getting roland drums to have the punch of real drums. It could be a roland thing bec other samples dont have the same issues. Roland sounds dont respond well to compression and electronic cymbals are basically worthless. Theres nothing in my whole library of samples like my A-custom 12"/30cm Zildjian crash.

[DeadPoet]

I'm touring with a musical these days, and we (have to) use a V-drum. Though it's programmed by Roland's Drum clinician it sounds like crap. Once you hit Volume 127, there's like NO WAY to go louder, and indeed, nothing gets through in the FOH - except for the live cymbals.. kinda funny sound


Herwig

[ausrock]

Fuck, I must have had what amounts to beginners' luck .

My son's band rehearse in our "studio" every week, and as I have pulled the recording gear together, kind of, they have started serios demo tracking...........bare with me on this.....lol.

The drummer works in the major local drum store and decided to do the most recent tracks with V-Drums courtesy of his employer.....i.e; he borrowed them from work. He started with a lower end kit coupled with the top end brain-box, but we immediately noticed the cymbals just weren't cutting it.......next night he came in with cymbal pads from the top level kit and they were much better.......still not the real thing, but at least they sounded more like cymbals.

He figured out how to configure the brain for 4 outs..........kick, snare and what equated to a pair of o/heads. I think we could have had up to 8 outs but someone at the shop had "lost" the instruction manual . These 4 outs were run direct into my S/craft Spirit studio 24/8 as was the bass players Yamaha TRB-6P. I also ran the signal to our rehearsal PA so they could hear themselves....the end result was extremely good, the cymbals were at least acceptable and the kick, snare and toms all sit well in the mix.

Bruce, I don't know why you are having problems unless it was in the way the drummer had the brain-box configured.............my approach was to get a good sound (for V-Drums) through our PA, then use those settings for tracking..........

I'm running on a small temporary H/drive at the moment, but if I can manage to get some of the audio onto my PC and convert it to mp3, I could email it for you to hear.

Good luck,

ChrisO

[Blue Bear Sound]

I have these particular drums spread across 4 tracks.... kick, snare, and "stereo" OH containing panned cymbals/hihat/panned toms - so separation is not an issue.

As I said, the tracks actually rock if listening to only drums/bass/vocal... as soon as I bring in the full mix, the drums completely lose their punch.......!

Maybe it IS the Roland samples, but I've also heard Yamaha's units and to me the Roland unit does seem to sound more real... would be a real kicker if the Yammie kit sounded worse than the Roland but yet cut thru a mix better!

[VOXVENDOR]

Bruce...

I think it's just a case of the wrong choice of sounds... I had the same problems for years, EXACTLY, the same problems.....and finally I found a snare and kick drum I liked that came out nicely in the mixes.. Actually my snare drum is 2 snares layered.....

These drums are flat in my mixes with no eq.. so if you check out my link, you can hear how decent they sound right "out of the box"

Mine is a Roland.. (Boss).. so Im sure the sounds are in the V-drum kit too..

But like I said.. i know what your going through, cause I didn't find this combo of sounds over night.... for 4 years I battled, trying to find a decent set of sounds in my drum machine....

And single sounds are usualy not the way to go.... My snare is actually 2 layers of snares.

Lately I have been using live drums... But from the experience I've had doing rock with sampled drums, you really need to sit down for a few days auditioning sounds and seeing what will work with the song.. Once you find that sound... you can change it up a bit.. adjust the volumes levels of the layer, but stick with the same sounds for most of your tunes...

Remember, A drum kit has 1 sound............ A drum module has 1000's of sound.....

About the cymbals..... No matter what you use.... I don't care if it's one of those $300 set of Chad Smith sample Cd's or a $200 drum machine, Cymbals and Hihat samples suck.....I've tried it all.


Get some real brass, and use it in combination with the electro kit.....

Basically what I do on my stuff....

http://www.nowhereradio.com/voxvendor

Good Luck bro!..

Joe

[Blue Bear Sound]

Hey Joe...!

I hear ya... and agree with you 100% -- my pref for this particular cut would have been to use live drums, and I always prefer using live drums over the fakes.........

But in this one case, the decision was not to cause further delays by re-cutting......... so I have to make do....

I'm really just posting here to vent out of annoyance...! (But I do appreciate everyone's comments and listening to me ramble!)

[verticalplunge]

I like my V-Drums--They're fun to play and they're better than a drum machine for a live feel. Plus, I would be on a first name basis with the captain of my local police precinct if I had a set of acoustics in my house....

My set is fairly new, as is my drumming, so I haven't gotten that far in a mix with them yet. Bruce, please do share your results if you find a useable method. Also, here's an obvious question--did you track the drum parts individually and without Roland's fx?

-DC

[VOXVENDOR]

Yeah...I guess part of it is, you can only do so much for the customer when the clock is running...... If he is on a budget, you can't really sit there for days choosing the sounds......

And if it's his kit... then he should be prepared with the sounds.......He should have picked them in pre-production.

Sort of like if a keyboard player comes into the studio.. The sounds are his responsibility.. (unless a producer is involved)

So, do what you can and if he bitches about the drum sounds when all is said and done.. tell him to pick better ones next time

Joe

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by verticalplunge
did you track the drum parts individually and without Roland's fx?

Tracked completely dry..... and Roland's on-board effects suck anyways, compared to my outboard stuff, so they wouldn't have been an option!

[verticalplunge]

I knew you knew that but I had to ask the obvious just in case....

[skippy]

Bruce, the best results I've got from my TD10exp has been to route everything to individual outputs as much as possible. I think the Roland internal mixer architecture is responsible for a lot of the "crunchedness" of the sounds when you run in stereo-out mode- things improved dramatically when I sent the snare to an individual out, the kick, and so on.

There's not much you can do about the hat and cymbal sounds per se, other than to make sure the the brain (if you have a TD10) has the expander module. The cymbals samples are _much_ improved by installing that. The hat desperately needs to be on a direct out, and not mixed to a 2-bus inside the box.

If you have the TD8, I don't think it has as many outputs, so this may not help. But having 8 direct outs on the TD10, and bypassing all of the internal effects and mix busses for the critical stuff, really can help a ton. After that, it's all time invested in getting things tweeked up that makes all the difference.

They'll never be real drums, but they still have their place. I like mine, and I haven`t had my acoustics out of their cases in 4 years- but that is because I've decided to invest the time to make it work. Aint easy, nor fun- but I'm not on the clock, so I can afford the investment. I can understand your frustration, believe me- but it can be made to work at least somewhat well...

[verticalplunge]

I have the TD6 and it's simply a matter of splitting the notes from each pad to its own track in your sequencer and then soloing each to a track. So, even if you don't have 8 outs on your module you can still separate the drum sounds.

[mikeh]

I've been recording my V-Drums (TD-10 brain) for about 3 years and before that I used an Alesis D4 brain for about 10 years (my room just is not a good room for tracking drums). However, I have been laying tracks as a drummer for more than 25 years.

First I must agree with VOXVENDOR, the TD10 needs a fair amount of tweaking to get the right mix of attack, sustain, tone and all the other variables that make a good drum sound.

Often this does require mixing the attack of one sound with the resonance of another - and unfortunately, that must be the responsiblily of the drummer - not the engineer.

As Blue Bear has indicating the sounds by themselves can fool you into thinking they sound great, but in the mix they don't seem to maintain a personality. Although that can be said for many sounds. I've heard great sounding piano and guitar tracks that didn't sit well in the mix.

I am much more a performer than an engineer but I have laid many drum tracks (both accoustic and electronic) for many engineers. Early on I found many engineers did not like the electronics because the engineer had to sacrifice a large amount of control over the captured signal. I spent alot of time working with engineers to try to help them get a signal they could work with.

It is not that much differnet than guitar or electronic keyboards, the performer has to have an understanding of what sounds work or don't work. Guitarists and keyboard players tend to work years on "thier sounds" but electronic drummers tend to find some preset sounds and often don't seem willing to "tweak them".

I do find that useing all 8 outputs does help me get the most control of the sound at the board, but some studios just don't have 8 channels free to track drums (not to mention another 2 or 3 to track live cymbals).

Speaking of cymbals, I think we all agree there never has been and never will be an acceptable electronic alternative to live cymbals. There is simply too much sustain and way too many variable harmonics happening to capture a sample.

Given an option I try to go with live cymbals and if it is not an option then the cymbals simply have to be kept low enough in the mix so that the weakness of the sound in concealed vs. highlighted.

So, Blue Bear, while I feel your pain I must say that while I still love real drums, at least in my little studio the advantages of tracking E-drums outweighs the limited compromise of sound.

[Chibi Nappa]

I'll be damned, the same problem happens to me. Those V-drums do sort of dissapear. My band used them to make our demo ( http://www.omnisoul.com ) and they can be a bit of a struggle. Right now we are tracking our full album, and although it will be about 90% real drums, we think the fake stuff could add color here and there. I'm seriously considering tracking the midi to Cakewalk and then building my own sample library for playback.

[mixmkr]

this is probably the obvious, and something I am sure you have tried...

but...like many tracks sometimes sound great on their own, it ISN'T uncommon for them to sound dull or lackluster in a mix. ..and I am sure you know that. ...and apparently have a case right now to prove the point.

But...think of the reverse ...of like soloing that ac. gtr that has no low end at all, but cuts thru the mix good....but sounds like crap on its own. Same with vocals sometimes... I think possibly this is the situation that is kinda happening to you. As they sound great in the mix, they are sharing some frequencies that some other instruments probably occupy too..and therefore 'compete' and then 'lose' in this case. Some people find it helpful to tweak stuff, when it is NOT solo'd , etc...but in the frenzy of the mix. Not like I am telling you anything new, but possibly you need to make them sound like 'shit' so they will sound great in the mix!! .....

[Blue Bear Sound]

Yeah - I tried various ways of trashing them up to get them to sit better.... not really working.... even in the mix, the sound is pretty fair, just lacks the dynamic....

I've successfully used V-Drums a number of times in the past, just this one track is a pig!

[TexRoadkill]

Sounds like you need a Sonic Maximizer!!!