Sound font-cakewalk & twiddlybit editing

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello, I'm a newbe to this forum. I have a couple of questions regarding Cakewalk and Soundblaster Live. I don't understand sound fonts at all. The soundfont configuation thing is a total mind boggle to me. When I open a Twiddlybits drum sample in cakewalk, they sound fantastic. When I open other drum type files, or programs, such as,Band in a box(opps can I say that here?), or Acid, or FruityLoops, none of the drums tracks sound as good(they suck) as Twiddlybit samples. I thought all the programs used the soundcard the same way. I am NOT a computer, midi, digital audio literate person, and simply want to be able to edit drums to my needs for simple recordings. Actually, I don't even record digitally. I just run the line outs from soundblaster to my analog mixer, then to a Tascam 16 track. I have 2 of them synched by a "midiizer" and am not interested in digital audio. Just want some simple decent drum tracks. I have a Roland TR-626, and wanted to use the individual outs, but again, the sounds really suck. Any ideas would be appreciated.(Hire a drummer?)
Also, can you tell me the best way to edit the twiddlybits samples, to make a stereo drum track. I'm a midi/digital dunce. I understand quite a bit, but am undereducated when it comes to this stuff. Thankyou so much.
fitz

[James Argo]

Originally posted by RICK FITZPATRICK
When I open a Twiddlybits drum sample in cakewalk, they sound fantastic. When I open other drum type files, or programs...
fitz

I never heard about "drum type file" before but here's a humble info you might smile...

I never know Twiddlybits, but when you say Soundfonts, I think it's one of the SF2 file, right ? Cakewalk (...and SONAR) has Soundfonts management included, that will automatically loading attached Soundfont(s) file to a Cakewalk's song file (.wrk, .bun, .cwb, etc.) So by the way you open the project, it loads those SF into SB Live!'s synth memory. Other app like you mentioned, I dunno if it has similiar Soundfont management. Then before you open the app, go to your AudioHQ (firmware from Creative to control SB Live!'s setting included with your card) and load the SF2 files to the internal synth memory of SB Live!. (It will eat your system memory.) Configure as you like, put them in their bank. Then open your app (Band in a box, etc...) and select the bank number refering to your sound. When things right, you can have it there... Back if you have problem.
Papa James

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello James, thanks for the info. What I meant by "drum type files" are files that are included with programs like Acid.(I guess those are .wav files in that program) Or if I open a file in Band in a box(these are midi files just like twiddlybits, correct) they don't sound the same. And when I open the Audio Hq, sound font/bank configuration manager, I haven't got the vaguest idea what the banks etc. mean. Or what they do?
So therefore, I can't configure anything as I don't understand it. Is a bank like a preset or a set of presets. The soundblaster manual is about as dumb as me. It reads like your supposed to be a midi or digital audio genious from the outset. Wwll I'll try what you said. And thanks a mill!
fitz

[James Argo]

Okay, one by one.
What is a bank ? Bank reffers to collection of a sound, which are prerecorded, edited, collected and saved into a single file, which can be loaded into your internal MIDI synth. Load the bank, assign it into memory (sorted by bank number). And there you have the sound in the memory, to be triggered by MIDI in your sequencer. One bank can hold up to 128 patches. Every patch has it's own sound. ( GM bank put Piano on patch 1, string on patch 49, Banjo on 106, etc...). And one general patch can hold up to 88 different sound assigned to each key (like your keyboard.) Here you can "play" drums with your keyboard. See ? Don't take it so hard, I never also think how did they make it, let's focus on making music.

Load your Twiddlybits into Cakewalk. Now pull the Options menu, open the SoundFonts. There you might find info about SoundFonts attached to the song. Remember the name and it's location. Close Cakewalk, and go to AudioHQ, SoundFonts. Load the SF you mentioned from it's location. Assign to bank 1. (Leave the Bank 0 for GM synth.) Open your Band in a box. Sellect MIDI out, and choose SB live! internal synth Bank 1 for your drums track. Here you can have the drums sound you hear on Twiddlybits.
Using FruityLoops somehow has different approach, since it use .wav files as the source (not MIDI). Then you can't use the sound in Band in a box.
I hope it helps.
Papa James

[AlChuck]

The Sound Blaster manual says almost nothing about MIDI or Sound Fonts. I recommend that you do some reading as it sounds like you are a complete novice at this.

You are mixing some things up or at least your use of terms is leading me to believe that you are confused about this. Twiddly Bits are MIDI files, not samples. The word "sample" implies digital audio sounds, as in ACID loops. A loop is just a snippet of sound that's made to be repeated smoothly, like an eight-bar drum phrase or a bass lick. There are digital audio loops and MIDI loops.

But I know that at least some Twiddly Bits stuff is available in digital audio form as well as MIDI form -- the Bill Bruford set "Package of 3" is an example. Which is it that you are using? The MIDI loops will be using the generic drums from the soundcard, just like other MIDI files do unless you explicitly load a different Sound Font. When you say the Twiddly Bits sound great compared to the ACID loops, perhaps you are talking about the performance? Because MIDI loops played on a a typical Sound Blaster drumkit usually don't sound all that great, audio-quality-wise. And ACID loops are of all different levels of quality, but most sound quite good, because they are often loops made from recordings of real drums performed and recorded by professionals.

In a nutshell, Sound Fonts are sound sets -- wavetable sound sets -- for Sound Blaster cards. (Wavetables are simply sets of individual samples that form the basis of the sound-generating engine for wavetable synthesizers.) Instead of the wavetable data being burned onto a chip on the SB card, it is stored in system memory, and therefore can readily be changed by the user to another sound set.

A patch is an instrument, basically -- such as an electric piano patch or a flute patch. When you assign a MIDI track to a particular patch, you are directing the MIDI data on that track to trigger notes to be played using that instrument sound.

A bank is simply a collection of patches.

[James Argo]

Thank's for the explanation added AlChuck.
You say better what I'm thinking.

And... whoop laaa... The Force !!!!

[BluesMeister]

Hi Rick,

There's little to add to James's & Al's posts.

For your information, the Creative cards have a built-in sound chip. When you play MIDI files it defaults to this sound chip, so the sounds you hear can sound quite artificial. That's possibly why some of those drum tracks you mentioned don't sound so good.

When you use sound fonts however, you must tell the SB card not to use the synthetic sound for this particular instrument, but to use this you-beaut SoundFont in its place. So while, for example, the sound-chip's organ can sound like an el-cheapo 60s Farfisa, an SF2 drum sample can sound absolutely realistic.

Of course there is a trade-off, and what you gain in sound quality you lose in RAM because the SF takes up a certain amount of this precious resource. So more RAM = happy camper.

Now, when you eventually move into the realms of the professional sound cards, you will find that they don't have a built in sound chip. Because of this you have to find some other means of reproducing those SFs and other samples that you will accumulate. That's when you need a software synthesiser to produce the sounds. Again, the RAM trade-off applies. But the quality of the noises coming out of your speakers will make you realise that it's the only way to go.

--
BluesMeister

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Thankyou gentleman, I am enlightened. Oh boy! Wheres my mouse....
Oh, one other question if you don't mind. I have a Lexicon Core 32 with breakout box etc. Is the PCI card also a sound card? Oh Nevermind. I'll read the manual. I was waiting to get my new computer before I installed it, but thought I would keep messin around with the Soundblaster till then. Thanks again
fitz:

[AlChuck]

Yes, the Core32 is a sound card, though I'm not sure that it has an on-board synth chip-- it probably does not.

And, I hate to say this, but I have heard lots of complaints about that card. Lexicon no longer makes sound cards, so the drivers will never be any better than they were a couple of years ago when they discontinued it. It can also be a struggle to get two sound cards to cooperate in the same computer, so be prepared for some hair pulling.

Now that I've crushed your spirit -- good luck!

[bamboo]

Originally posted by BluesMeister

For your information, the Creative cards have a built-in sound chip. When you play MIDI files it defaults to this sound chip, so the sounds you hear can sound quite artificial.

A small correction:
Old AWE-type soundblasters had a sound synthesizer chip and a ROM-based GM sound bank that sounded just horribly. SBLive has a sound chip too, but it doesn't use ROM-based sounds. By default, it uses the standard Windows GM sound bank, which sounds horribly too, hence the confusion.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hello Gents, this is temporary anyway. I know the soundblaster live sucks. Waiting to buy modules. What would you suggest as a interface/sound card. Or both. 2 cards. Or what? I also know about the core 32. Its all I have at the moment, more than the soundblaster. I even tried to get ahold of lexicon. If the ceo were around, I would propose something to him. Hmmmm. Won't say it here, other than to bend over. Same with the guy that sold it to me, as I found out later he knew. Won't go there. Anyway, digital is not my thing, just want something to produce some good drums. I use my computer for autocad, not digital audio. Thanks again.
fitz

[BluesMeister]

Thanks Bamboo,

I used to own an AWE 64Gold. I've never had an SBLive, I went straight to a Terratec EWX 24/96.

What's the story with the Audigy then? Same deal as the SBLive? Chip but no ROM samples?

--
BluesMeister

[Paul881]

BluesMeister, thank you for the best description of how soundfonts and soundcards interelate that I have ever read. Even I could understand what you wrote

I used to have a s/blaster Platignum Live! for s/fonts but now I use Live synth pro to manage them, so my 760meg ram comes in useful

[Paul881]

For drums I use Soundfonts either in Fruity Loops, a loop based drum program or soundfonts using Sonars piano roll view and I program them myself. I have put some effort in to understand simple drum rythms and am learning more all the time. Or for simple stuff, I can "play" the drums in realtime from my midi controller. There are some great sounding msoundfont drum kits out the in wwwland
One of the best threads I have read on soundfont drumms came from Alan McGuiness. Read his article here. His suggested drum soundfont is the best, imho.

http://homerecording.com/bbs/showthr...threadid=39305
Best of luck.

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Wow, thats tooooooooooooooooo good! Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks so very much!!!! Actually, I have to wait for the link alan gave to be operative(server down)but just what he said is great. You too, thanks again. I'll be in percussion paradise.
fitz

[Paul881]

Rick, I struggled for some time to understand soundfonts and what they could do and how to load them properly. When I finnally understood and starting downloading sounds that I could trigger from my k/board, it was like getting religion Only without the hassle...almost

Upgrading your soundcard will amaze you. The first time I heard the "silence" from my new soundcard compared to the s/blaster, I thought something had gone wrong!
I went for m-audio's delta 66 with the optional omni breakout box and it has been fine for me, even working alongside my s/blaster.
The echo range is also well thought of , the m-audio 24/96 is a good starter card and the terratec firewire card seems to be a winner too. Search on the HoRec forums and just read some of the threads to get a feel. Always be prepared for contradictory advice though, you will always hear horror stories.

[smilestoned]

I use soundfonts too but not on my live card anymore.
May be you heart about Kontakt from Native Instruments. You can load soundfonds, wave files and more file types in this software sampler and it is soundcard independent.
When you have pretty decent soundfonts you can tweak them further. And for really good soundfonts go to http://www.sonicimplants.com/sonicimplantproduct.asp and listen to a few samples. They are really good.

[Paul881]

Smilestoned (I've done that a few times ) you are right, there are quite a number of synths that let you use s/fonts, Kontakt, F.Loops, VSampler etc. So you don't need s/blaster cards anymore. I only use mine now cos a) I'm too lazy to remove it and b) I use the midi connector on the Live! front panel. I have never used the creative mixer either.

[BluesMeister]

Hey Paul881,

BluesMeister, thank you for the best description of how soundfonts and soundcards interelate that I have ever read. Even I could understand what you wrote

That's my pleasure Paul Based on the lack of knowledge that I had when I first set out with a decent audio card & soundfonts, I was determined that no one else should have to feel as stupid as I did.

While I'm not really the full bottle on this stuff, I have advanced my understanding to quite a significant degree, and a fair amount of what I know can be found on this very BB.

Next to uk.music.guitar newsgroup, this is one of the best places to hang out at.

That link you gave to the drum article was quite a good one Paul. What Alan McGuiness says is quite true, and I have always approached my drum MIDI tracks with this in mind. The drummer only has two hands and two feet, so there shouldn't be too much happening! I confess to a leaning toward shuffle rhythm (think "Don't Stop" by Fleetwood Mac). I lurve that loping feel

I should point out that editing SoundFonts with Vienna Studio will only work if you have a Creative SoundBlaster audio card. It point blank refused to run with my Terratec.

--
BluesMeister

[Paul881]

BluesMeister, I have progressed with soundfonts and midi to an elementary degree but I still get confused with all the Banks, channels, ins, outs, instruments, patches, etc.
Thanks for the info on the Vienna Sound studio. I was wondering if it worked outside of the creative environment. Now I know

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

I have progressed with soundfonts and midi to an elementary degree but I still get confused with all the Banks,

ditto, and thanks everyone for making it possible for me to MAYBE get beyond "soundfont illiteracy"
fitz

Always be prepared for contradictory advice though,

naaaaah, not here!