Religious experience with waves linear phase EQ

JuSumPilgrim · #1 10-07-2002

Just thought Id share.

I had a song with 4 vocal tracks, a couple of renEQs and ultrafunk EQs on them. Things were pretty cool although there was a slight fog and lack of definition in the low mids (somewhere around 400-800 or so). To make a long story short, I recently had credit at a store and splurged for waves' masters package as this place didnt have any mics or pres worth talking about. It was more of a keyboard/software kind of place than a pro audio store. Anyway, I had only used the plugs on mixdowns as they are meant for "mastering" but I figured why not. So I put the linear phase EQ on the lead vocal and lo and behold...clarity, definition all around, like someone took the veil off. This was a track done with an NT1000 through an envoice and it was reminiscent of the clarity and up frontness of a buzz pre I borrowed a couple of times (that was the last time I had a religious experience

) Check it out.

pipelineaudio · #2 10-07-2002

me and some of the guys on #musicdsp on irc's efnet were trying to figure out how they could make this plug...you got any ideas ?

heres mine but I dont think its possible in realtime:
first they reverse the audio, then apply HALF of the gain of the EQ using 1/2 of the Q..then they re-reverse it and do the other half of the gain still at half of the Q factor

ok this theory has many holes, so lets hear some more!

chessrock · #3 10-07-2002

Uh . . . yea.

Took the words right out 'a my mouth.

Uh huh.

littledog · #4 10-08-2002

Just be careful about using the linear series on individual tracks. The induced delay is considerable. It's not an issue on a whole mix, since everything would be delayed the same.

ebeam · #5 10-08-2002

Don't most multitrack programs automatically detect and account for plug-in induced delay?

littledog · #6 10-08-2002

Can't speak for most... Pro Tools doesn't.

JuSumPilgrim · #7 10-08-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by littledog
Just be careful about using the linear series on individual tracks. The induced delay is considerable. It's not an issue on a whole mix, since everything would be delayed the same.

Interesting.

Nothing audible so far though the song Ive used it on has a pretty open feel as far as the vocals go.

How many ms are we talking here?

pipelineaudio · #8 10-08-2002

it can be a LOT of delay

this is one area where app makers NEED to go take a look at the real world. We're still missing many basic necessities, when using a computer for audio...these guys need to come see what its like with a customer over your shoulder when we are forced to work the software developers' way instead of the other way around...

some apps have plug in delay compensation but it either doesnt work or doesnt work correctly, or is only in certain spots.

sjoko2 · #9 10-10-2002

Just to emphasize what has been said already..........

Mastering plug-ins are.......... for mastering.
They. and especially the Waves package, cause VERY considerable latency.
Don't use them on individual tracks unless you measure the latency properly. Some DAW's allow for measurement within the system (like Pro Tools for instance), most do not.

dobro · #10 10-10-2002

I don't get it - if you're applying EQ to a track you've already recorded, how can there be latency involved? - you're just processing what's already there, not changing its position relative to the other tracks in the mix.

sjoko2 · #11 10-10-2002

the plug in(s) concerned take the audio, apply some (complex) processing, which takes time, and return the tracks to the playlist.

exactly the same case if you use outboard processing, it all takes time.

please note that the same thing takes place with ANY form of processing, even TDM. If you apply a lot of processing to a track, you have to consider time allignment

pipelineaudio · #12 10-10-2002

in hardware the delay is usually 2 samples..also in hardware, the delay is always the same, while in native plugs it can be delayed a certian amount at one time, and then a different amount later, or even in the same place, at different hits on the play bar

in real life, theres an excuse: we havent invented time travel yet.

in a NON linear system, where it already knows whats coming next, there is no excuse. maybe in tracking but not in mixing. This is one of the promises of computer recording that we still havent been fulfilled yet.

ambi · #13 10-10-2002

hmm, well i've been using the waves plugins for individual tracks, in logic, for all my mixes. I use the q10 eq , or sometimes the q2, or q4, or whatever i need, and the c1 compression or individual tracks. Just because they're really god pluggins, that work well. I didn' realize they were just for mastering. So what good plugins can i use for mixing on individual tracks?
I assumed that because they are really good, it would be a good idea to use the waves plugins on the whole song...

chessrock · #14 10-10-2002

So this is only a problem if you're applying it accross several tracks, and in real time.

Not a problem if you simply apply the eq to the track in question, destructively (or non-destructively if you enable undo), and move on.

BTW, I haven't yet had my "religious experience" with this plug as of yet. Wondering if I didn't just blow my money.

Someone else please re-affirm my purchase and tell me my mixes are going to have expensive gloss, now, in the DAW environment.

sjoko2 · #15 10-10-2002

Just to put everything in perspective:

There is nothing that says you cannot use those plugs on individual tracks, providing:
- You make sure that the resulting file is brough back in time.
- You make sure the settings you choose are not such that, when you apply some mastering tools over the final mix, your processing becomes so extreme it ruins the sound quality.

littledog · #16 10-10-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by ambi
hmm, well i've been using the waves plugins for individual tracks, in logic, for all my mixes. I use the q10 eq , or sometimes the q2, or q4, or whatever i need, and the c1 compression or individual tracks. Just because they're really god pluggins, that work well. I didn' realize they were just for mastering. So what good plugins can i use for mixing on individual tracks?
I assumed that because they are really good, it would be a good idea to use the waves plugins on the whole song...

Ambi, the c1 and q10 are NOT the same as the phase linear mastering plug-ins. As Sjoko stated, all plug-ins create a certain amount of latency (as does even sending audio to an aux buss), but the plug-ins like q-10 and c-1 have relatively small amounts, and are intended for use on individual tracks. Not like the phase linear ones, which have massive latency. If you use such a plug-in on an individual track without doing some compensating nudging, that track will no longer be playing "in time" with the rest of the song.

You can often get away with using Q10 and C1 without regard to the resulting time shifting, because the amounts are small. (Although it might be worth trying to compensate and seeing if it improves the overall sound.) But if you are dealing with a stereo pair of tracks, you definitely want to apply the same amount of plug-ins to both sides, or you will hear phasing effects.

ambi · #17 10-11-2002

ok makes sense, thanks man. Yea, sometimes i have one or two waves plugins running per track, with 8-14 tracks running.

slows down a bit sometimes.

but i have 512 megs of pc133 ram, and a 1.2gig tbird.
its pretty quick, but i wish it has ddr ram and an xp processor.

dobro · #18 10-11-2002

Damn, Sjoko, I feel like a guy who's sun has been revolving around his planet, and he's just had a casual exchange with Galileo...

Okay, so how about if Pilgrim does the following: he clones the track he wants to EQ, he EQs it with his new plugin, and then he lines the clone up with the original so that they start together. Will that work?

Or does he have to bung the new track into Acid to get it working with everything else?

littledog · #19 10-11-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by dobro
Damn, Sjoko, I feel like a guy who's sun has been revolving around his planet, and he's just had a casual exchange with Galileo...

Okay, so how about if Pilgrim does the following: he clones the track he wants to EQ, he EQs it with his new plugin, and then he lines the clone up with the original so that they start together. Will that work?

If you record the track with the eq included onto a new track and then line them up, then mute the original track - that would work. If you don't actually record the new track with the eq, it will still appear to be lined up correctly but won't sound that way.

And ambi, the kind of "slowing down" you are referring to is not the latency being discussed here, but the fact that your CPU is struggling to do all the processing you are asking it to do in real time.

sjoko2 · #20 10-11-2002

Quote:

Originally posted by ambi
ok makes sense, thanks man. Yea, sometimes i have one or two waves plugins running per track, with 8-14 tracks running.

slows down a bit sometimes.

but i have 512 megs of pc133 ram, and a 1.2gig tbird.
its pretty quick, but i wish it has ddr ram and an xp processor.

ambi, I think you're missing the point somewhere (many people do) about latency.
Please note that it has NOTHING to do with the speed of your computer. It would happen on an old laptop, on yours and it does happen in any studio using the most powerful 'puters available.
Latency (time delay) is the time it takes to extract the file from a session, process the file through a plug-in, and deposit the file back in the session (so to speak).
Plug-ins designed to work in a session are designed to minimise latency, but there is no such requirement for mastering plug-ins, which are designed to be applied over a stereo (or surround) bus, in other words the whole session, and thereby do not effect the time position of individual tracks.

Dobro - spot-on. You can measure the time a track should be in different ways, Pro Tools has a dedicated option for this, I don't know much how other systems handle this, apart from visual measurement. Note that while the time changes might be small, they can easily cause phasing problems and / or ruin the feel of a track

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