Metal Guitar recording tips??

[tgs]

Is there any of you who deal a lot with recording metal music? I've done so for a couple of years now, but I'm still not satisfied with my guitar sound. I always have to eq the hell out of the signal, and I wonder of others have similar experiences.

I should also mention that I'm talking about extreme metal music, like death metal, black metal, thrash, and similar

[Uladine]

I wouldn't EQ the guitars much at all after tracking them. Try to get the sound how you want it at the amp and try to capture that. Adding EQ afterwards sometimes makes it sound fake of sucked up. Rolling off the lows a bit never hurt anyone though.

[sjoko2]

I don't know what your set-up or recording facilities comprise of, so all I can do is give you my "ultimate heavy" setup, which is the heaviest sound I've achieved over the decades.

Room - a semi open 10 x 6 room with a high volume bass trap in the (sloping) roof, broad band panel absorbers on 2 sides and in one corner, staw panel cladding on 2 1/2 walls. In other words, a diffused, dampened, and trapped space.

Amp - THD UniValve with an EL34 tube, high gain input, volume, treble and bass at 4o'clock, attitude at 5o'clock, attenuator off.

Speakers - Marshall 4 x 12 with vintage celestions

Mics - Shure SM57 1 inch from the cloth, aimed 1 inch from the edge of one of the bottem speakers.
Shure SM7 (the best guitar mic - period) aimed at the center of one of the top speakers.

2 Drawmer gates.

And that's it, the mother of heavy guitar sounds. If you like I could post a sample. Now EQ or any other form of processing required.

[Smoobg]

I'd be interested in hearing some samples! Post em'!

[tgs]

Well, my space is pretty limited, so I have my amps in a dead room and use close micing exclusively.

Thanks for the tip on SM7, I will check it out. What I've used up until now is SM57, U89i and Röde NT3, and I think the best results come out of the SM57.

Amp-wise, I just purchased an Engl Fireball, and it's plugged into a Marshall 8412 cabinet. I also have a Marshall Valvestate and a Peavey Bandit, but I prefer the Engl.

The lows, yes... That's my biggest problem, but I guess I'm not alone! I often get a bumbly sound out of the amp and have to cut fairly much (maybe 6-7dB) at about 3-400Hz.

[sjoko2]

try the thd univalve or the bivalve, best amps on the planet, and the most versatile

[Son of Mixerman]

What kinda preamps are we talking in this situation? I also didn't see what kinda a guitar and tunings. If your limited to space Ive built boxes around the amp and mic and covered them with 3 sleeping bags to take some edge off. My amp is a 2205 (Marshall)channel switcher with 6550's instead of the stock El34's, on the bench its 80 watts, plenty of the heavyness needed. 4X12 JCM 900 cab. I think the hard thing in defining a guitar sound is the nuances of grind. For instance I like the sound of Mike Mushok of StainD more than Korn. Its all about where it hits you, either in the head or in the gut. Try finding a few CD you like the guitar sound and find out what they did. Im sure Sjoko's set up is great and its a tried and true used by lots of players. I spent years searching for the tone I was looking for. I bet if you mic'd and recorded 2 tracks on one setup thats edgy and doubled it with something heavier and blend you might be happy with that.

Sjoko, what about compression, I know alot of the newer metal is compressed severely and gated, but I know some of the cheaper gates will stutter and not everyone can afford Drawmers.

SoMm

[sjoko2]

The preamps I use are True System Precission 8

I'm not of the current "compress the shit out of everything" school, I prefer to get things sounding the way I envisage it should sound on the record.
I do a setup, and listen. If I don't like the sound, I change the setup, until I'm happy.
I do use gates on straight rythm parts, but mainly just to get the amp noise out. You don't have to use Drawmers, I also use the Waves software gates successfully.

I think the most important aspects (apart from the player) are the mic and the amp. As I have said here before, there is nothing like the THD amps for brilliant sound and versatility.

On thing - if you make baffles around you cab, leave some room. The sound has to have at least 6 to 10 foot around it, or it will sound dead.

[Son of Mixerman]

Originally posted by sjoko2

On thing - if you make baffles around you cab, leave some room. The sound has to have at least 6 to 10 foot around it, or it will sound dead.

Do you mean 6 to 10 inches?

SoMm

[sjoko2]

no, feet is what I ment

[Cyrokk]

I can attest that for metal, recording multiple takes of the exact same setup does work, particularly when you are dealing with lots of gain.

I am currently working on a metal track and I stumbled upon a sound similar to what was used on Venom's "Cast in Stone". I had two tracks of Dual Rectifier. Sort of a heavy scratchiness with all that gain. It didn't fit the song I'm working on, but at least I know it's there should I need it.

Cy

[Son of Mixerman]

Originally posted by sjoko2
no, feet is what I ment

I think Im gonna need a bigger boat

I don't have that much room to play with, my amp cabinet is inside a 4ftX4ft box, blankets over the mic and cabinet. I spent months designing it to get sound I wanted. It can also be pretty live when I take the blankets out. Within the box Ive gotten Yngwie Malmsteens tone and pretty close to Steve Vai's tone. But its mostly boxed because the neighbors don't like it when its outta the box. To me, my favorite set up it a large semi live room, 2 full stacks staggered for XY mic at 12 ft and 6 ft up, and 2 57's on the grille, run a delay down one line from the DI. YMMV
I haven't played THD since the early 90 when I played a 4X10 bassman copy, it was too clean for me. I would like to have a Bogner Extacy someday. In Seattle Wa. there are 2 Purple stacks for sale, 4X12 tweed A cab with a 2X18 Bass B cabinet, matching purple either jtm45 or Plexi heads, they want about 12, 000 for the whole cupONoodles. If I was still plaing live Id be refinancing my parent house for em

I loaned my amp out to my friend Jim last album, my amp blended with the dual rectifier sounded pretty hot.

SoMm

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by tgs
The lows, yes... That's my biggest problem, but I guess I'm not alone! I often get a bumbly sound out of the amp and have to cut fairly much (maybe 6-7dB) at about 3-400Hz.

EQ the guitar amp while listening through your monitors so you can really dial in the tone. The live room tone is usually different than the recorded tone. Use the low cut on your mics if you have one.

[detuned6]

Originally posted by tgs
Is there any of you who deal a lot with recording metal music? I've done so for a couple of years now, but I'm still not satisfied with my guitar sound. I always have to eq the hell out of the signal, and I wonder of others have similar experiences.

I should also mention that I'm talking about extreme metal music, like death metal, black metal, thrash, and similar

I guess i could add in since im all about death metal and heavy shit. I have never really cared for the guitar tones of black metal bands. heres "my" way to heavy guitar tones.
Tube amps -are the way to go, you get more balls. I use a crate voodoo and mesa rectifier. I dont care for dist pedals , (they all basically sux at high levels and are thin sounding) same w/most cheap rackmount pres.(i tried getting a good sound w / my buddys ARTsgx2000-this things sux's for dist!)
Speakers-celestions the best in my book. green backs break up to much, my friend had a measa rect cab, and i told him for months " its to muddy w/ that much dist, get celestions" , he finally did.(and gave me a hi five...lol)
guitars-i like ibanez's(been on them for 9 years)tuned to b.
Mic's- i use the oll trusty sm57 and a cad M37, any where from the grill to 1ft back.
I usally cut my bass and dist back 2 incrimints from my normal tone.( because you can add later)
i like to get a good sound in the room, then i work on the tweeking when im in front of the monitors. then its time to press...rec.
cheers.........

[pipelineaudio]

I done quite a bit of work for artists on the " Metal Blade " label so I guess I can chime in

Actually a lot of this came from following around the UBER God Of Metal Engineering : Bill Metoyer. ( check the back of your records, if you dont see his name on anything, you need a trip to the record store )

Make DAMN sure your guitar is in tune, and intonated properly. Different intonations and even VERY slightly different, can make whole separate flavors of distortion so get it as close as you can. If you know the difference in distortion sound between a 24 3/4" scale guitar neck and a 25 1/2" one then you know what Im saying.

Now on to your preamp, or preamp section of your head, depending on what you got. In most cases, metal guitar tones come from a LOT, a WHOLE LOT less ( thats right LESS ) distortion/preamp gain than you would use live. For riffs and chord changes, the REAL heaviness comes from dynamics, the fact that it gets LOUDER when your pic hits the string than when the string is just resonating.
It seems obvious but its not really. You need to MAXIMIZE the dynamic range at this stage because from here on out, the signal is going to be compressed and degraded in all sorts of ways. In most cases the gain should be about where, when if you SOFTLY strum a chord it actually comes out clean. Transistor amps/pedals may not do this ( some will ) which is another reason tubes are usually perferred for this type of thing.
Now, tone. Scooped mids, cranked bass and treble right? WRONG. For recording you will need a LOT more mids than you normally would for live. You need to be heard. The way our ears work, we take most of our cues from the midrange. Get as much body in the tone as you can....not bottom, body. You can always scoop it out later if you must. Like the lumberjack says " always cut long" right ?

Ok, on to the power amp or the power section of your head if you use one. Here is where you start the dynamic reduction process. You want to get a sound with enough sustain to work, but being careful whether or not you want to HEAR power tube saturation or speaker distortion. In some cases you want to, in some cases you dont. Get a good sound that you ENJOY. Make sure ( if you can at this point in the recording) that it fits with the other tracks. You will probably use a speaker that you wouldnt like live for this process. A speaker with more mid's than normal, like a celestion Vintage 30 or maybe a Kendrick. Greenbacks are good live, but sometimes lose that all important midrange on tape. Watch the speaker distortion, get a power level that makes COMFORTABLE dynamics for you. Errr on the LESS compressed side so you gotta work just a WEE bit harder than normal to crunch it up.

Now, stand in the room with the amp. Get your head moving around until you find the one speaker that sounds better than the others, or maybe just a real good spot where it seems to sound best. I am assuming we are NOT going after a " room " sound at this point. Stick a 57 RIGHT there, where your ear was.
Now, at the console, FIRST verify that that is *roughly* the sound you heard out there. Be sure levels are where they should be etc...no eq at this point on the console. Have someone move the mic back towards or away from the cab ( or do it yourself with headphones ). You are doing two things with this:

1) changing the ratio of direct( from the speaker ) vs. reflected ( yeah you might be only a few inches from the cab but the room still is playing a HUGE part) sound coming into the mic

2)changing the amount of dynamic compression that the actual volume of the speaker is causing in the mic's diaphragm, ribbon or voice coil. You are changing the BEHAVIOUR of the sound here.

Once you like the placement of your mic, its time to get REAL tricky.

ONE mic is almost never enough, but with two or more, PHASE CANCELLATION rears its ugly head. But we got a trick for that right?

Here comes

Put the guitar down. Make it make noise, or take the cable off and stick it on something that will make noise. This noise has to be stable and constant....a fender strat's hum is perfect for this assuming it has some midrange harmonics to it.

Using your console's meters, bring that noise up to wherever your "zero" is. This will probably require a LOT of mic pre gain so make sure your speakers are turned down. DONT let anyone touch the guitar or whatever the noise source is. Once youve got the signal to zero, mute the channel

Next go into the room with the amp, and put another mic about equidistant from the speaker as the first mic is...Be careful not to disturb Mic #1.

Back in the control room, bring Mic #2 up to zero

Now, VERY IMPORTANTLY, pull Mic#2's fader ( NOT mic pre ) down to -infinity. Unmute Mic#1. Slowly push Mic#2's fader up towards zero.

If the volume at your final LeftRight Mix buss on your console goes UP, you need to flip the phase of mic #2. If your console doesnt have a phase switch, make an out of phase cable. Just reverse pins 2 and 3 on an XLR, and make DAMN sure you label that cable from now on so you dont screw up some overheads or something.
Remember if the volume goes UP flip the phase

If the volume goes down we can proceed...keep flipping the phase until the volume goes DOWN when they are at their zeros.

Now pick up a bat, knife or gun. Whatever you are best with. Threaten anyone in the control room with it and say " DO NOT touch that guitar !!!! I am gonna have headphones on at extreme gain levels and am risking it all so you can have a good guitar sound ". Wave the weapon around menacingly until you are SURE that they get the point. Kick them out and lock the door if you cant trust em...now is NOT the time for gags.

now go out to the amp with headphones on. You will hear a hiss or buzz or hum...make sure the hum in the phones is louder than the one you can hear directly from the amp.

DO NOT cough, you will blow your eardrums right into each other. Becareful of any noise that may be present.

Now, EXTREMELY carefully, move Mic#2 back and forth, left and right. SLOWLY

You should hear a whoosh, much like a flanger pedal would make.

The trick here is to find the spot where the LEAST noise is coming out of the headphones. Keep moving the mic you will find it.

have you caught the theory yet? We are looking for the spot where the two mics are THE MOST in phase with each other. If one is phase flipped, then at the most in phase spot, they will nearly cancel each other out. FIND THAT SPOT

once you got it, take off the phones and go back to the console.

Turn both mic preamps gains ALL the way down. Put fader one at the unity position on your console. Play your guitar and turn up the mic pre gain until you hit zero. Now mute Mic #1. Now turn fader 2 to the unity position. Bring up Mic pre #2 until you hit zero.

edit : OOPS!!!!!!
I forgot, tho you prolly figured it out. Unflip the phase on mic #2 at this point so that both mics are IN phase. Sorry about that

Unmute #1 and mess with the faders. Those two faders now become the BEST EQ money can buy! Turn up one then the other, experiment to your heart's content. Once you got a sound you like, buss them together and send em to a track...or keep em separate if you want some choices later...

revel in your glorious new tone!

Aaron Carey
StudioZ/Pipelineaudio
www.studiozpro.com

[Track Rat]

Hey Aaron, wanna come over to the studio and hang out for a few weeks? Great post.

[detuned6]

killer advice Aaron, i gotta try this. Thanks.

[Chris Tondreau]

Hanging around the board for a little while, I find that you hear a lot of the same stuff - and there's a reason for that. The things that you hear over and over again are, typically, good advice.

Aaron's post is a different sort of beast. When I come across a post like this, it makes me glad for all the hours I've spent reading the above-mentioned plethora of good advice for the 100th time a little more rewarding. (certainly not a diss to those well-meaning individuals who answer the same questions that are posted over and over again with the traditional good advice) This is new - an entirely different technique than anyone recently has described - and one that has been suggested is tried and true.

Thanks, Aaron, for the technique!

Chris

[Chris Tondreau]

PS. You seem to know a hell of a lot for a newbie!!

Chris

[Cyrokk]

This thread is inspiring and absolutely priceless. It's one of the very few that I'm actually sending to the printer.

Cy

[SS454]

Right on Aaron,
I have a question. I have a Memphis guitar and a Gorilla 10 watt amp. How do I get it to sound just like Slayer? Ha Ha Ha

[Track Rat]

Originally posted by SS454
Right on Aaron,
I have a question. I have a Memphis guitar and a Gorilla 10 watt amp. How do I get it to sound just like Slayer? Ha Ha Ha

Well, first, ya git yerself a chainsaw..........

[Ace2000]

tune down and add gain.

[rocky outcrop]

I like the knife bit I'm gonna try that even if im not recording

[sjoko2]

I've posted a song I just did here:
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/...d=1860&alid=-1
Not a metal track, but some heavy guitar with (I think) a good sound.
Guitars have been recorded as described earlier in the thread, THD UniValve, Marshall 4 x 12 with vintage Celestions, Shure SM57, Shure SM7, Precission 8 preamp, and a Gibson Les Paul.

No processing has been applied apart from some heavy gating on "the way in".The low end shelved to zero at 47 Hz (there was to much low).