Can monitors lay on there sides ?

[Stealthtech]

Just bought a set of monitors that are a couple inches taller than my last ones and wont stand in the bookshelf above my PC desk where my other ones where. Does it do any harm to lay monitors on there sides rather than standing upright. I would'nt think it would, but I would rather be safe than sorry after the dough I forked out for these.

Thanks Anybody

[subtractor]

No. Some even come with pads for the side you want to lay it on.

[Stealthtech]

Good News !! thanks Sub

3 more posts and your a force to be reccond with !!
or how ever the hell you spell it

[subtractor]

Oh what the hell... Make it 2.

[MISTERQCUE]

Only if they don't complain!

[littledog]

I always used to think like the consensus opinion here about monitor orientation - that it didn't matter much. Until my acoustical consultant told me in no uncertain terms to pick those Genelecs up off of their sides and put them back upright. Now, mind you, the 1031A's even have a rotating tweeter so that if you lay flat the "Genelec" label will still appear horizontal for easy reading. But I was told they still sound a lot better vertical than horizontal.

I imagine it varies from speaker design to speaker design. You may want to check with the manufacturer. Of course, in these matters it would be great to hear from our resident speaker guru - Barefoot. You listening, Mr. Foot?

[Atwork]

All those famous record producers with their NS10s etc. laid on their sides must know something. Picture after picture in that Behind the Glass book shows a smiling golden-eared person sat in front of monitors laid 'incorrectly' on their side. Yet, the speaker manufacturers know their stuff, too, and they always say stand them vertical. So I'm undecided - Except I'm sure my Control 1s sound less harsh since I put them on their side.

I hope we get more opinions on this. I'd like to hear them.

[Blue Bear Sound]

...someone had brought this up a long time ago, and so I tested it myself to see how much of a noticeable difference there was... it's night and day.... I found imaging is MUCH more precise in the upright position on monitors designed to be upright...

But anyways, try it yourself and use whichever position sounds best to you....... you're the only one that has to like it, right?!?!!

[knightfly]

One reason that comes to mind as to why monitors should NOT be on their side, is this: When monitors are vertical and the tweets are directly above the woofs, you can move your head somewhat from side to side and NOT change the time alignment (hopefully) built into the monitors by the factory, since you won't be changing the relative distance (to your ear) from the tweet and woof. In other words, both drivers will get closer or farther from your ear, but remain "time aligned" - However, with the monitors laid on their side, now any movement of your head from side to side will cause you to lose time alignment between woof and tweet, and in OPPOSITE directions for the left and right monitor. Doubt if that's gonna sound good...

Sounds right to me, whaddaya think?

[Lopp]

One aspect of speaker orientation can depend on how the tweeters are oriented towards your ear. High frequencies are more unidirectional than low frequencies. Thus, it is important that the tweeters are oriented towards and level with your ears.

Room acoustics, of course, also affect speaker alignment. Preferred speaker alignment and placement can vary from room to room and can depend on objects in the room.

For example, your recording console will reflect signals from your speaker. Placing your speakers flat may result in more reflected signals than placing them upright. However, this problem may be overcome by re-locating your speakers.

knightfly had an interesting observation with side to side head movement. However, the same argument can be made when the speakers are horizontal for up/down head movement.

Bruce's studies have confirmed the generally held concept that speakers should be upright. However, keep in mind that (from what I can tell) his experiments with orientation are specific to his speaker locations in his control room. Results may change for different locations in different rooms.

Point being, speaker placement is more important than vertical vs. horizontal alignment. In fact, different alignments may be preferred depending on placement and room characteristics.



Eh. Just some musings.

[Stealthtech]

WOW !! Didn't expect that much feedback, although the subject was changed somewhat but interesting anyway. The reason I was asking originally was because I now only have shelf space to lay them sideways because they are taller than my old ones. These do have pivoting tweeters though. I guess I will have to experiment with different positions and angles with them on there sides. Or, tear my shelf apart and raise it 3 inches so they will fit standing up...oh well

[darrin_h2000]

Some monitors were designed to be laid on thier sides the NS10s for example. the sure fire way to know for sure is to look at the label.

[ausrock]

Tannoy have explained the reasons for vertical mounting as opposed to horizontal in their Reveal user manual............go to the following site and have a look around..........

http://www.tannoy.com/frame.cfm?ID=3&D=2

[Son of Mixerman]

I have mine laying on thier sides. They sound better sitting upright like the way they were designed. Why are they on their sides you ask? Because I haven't been doing any critical mixing or listening in about 4 months. Ive been just writing mostly and so they hold more paper on their sides. If I stand them upright I have tilt them more and then all the papers slide off. When I get ready to start tracking or mixing then I go through the excersise of playing a ref CD and moving them around till Im happy. So one need to invent a platform like the electric mirrors on a car, you just move the joy stick until its right. You must admit that rotating and angling(tilt) can be time consuming. How about motor mo pads? You know this upright or on their sides argument was what got Cain and Able into trouble. I say do whatever makes your mixes sound best. Because thats what were all trying to do(well most of us).

SoMm

[knightfly]

At last, a really PRACTICAL reason for laying them on their sides - it's really a PITA when your filing system falls off... :=)

Hey, I'm all for the servo controlled nearfield approach - wonder what I can get a wrecked Honda Civic for, so I can rob the mirror control system... Steve

[Badger]

Originally posted by Lopp

knightfly had an interesting observation with side to side head movement. However, the same argument can be made when the speakers are horizontal for up/down head movement.

Nope, its not the same because your ears are on the sides of you head. Up and down doesnt matter as much.

[Badger]

on page 6 of this manual from tannoy, it explains the whole thing pretty well
http://www.cortex.westhost.com/tanno...s/REVACMAN.PDF

[littledog]

I'm gonna P.M. Barefoot to get his ass over here!

[barefoot]

Ok, ok, I'm hear!

Bdgr gives a good reference. Here's a little elaboration.

Speaker drivers have a thing call their "acoustic center". This is the point in space where the sound waves first emerge. It's approximately where the voice coil is. A woofer voice rests further back than a tweeter voice coil, so likewise, their acoustic centers are misaligned.



For about one octave centered around the crossover frequency the woofer and tweeter work simultaneously. If we draw a line perpendicular to their acoustic centers we find the direction the speaker effectively radiates at the crossover frequency. And since the drivers are also vertically separated they create an interference pattern like that illustrated in the Tannoy manual. The result of this interference is an equal loudness "lobe" pattern. Within a small window near the center line of the lobe pattern all is fine. But as you change angles vertically relative to this center line the response can change dramatically. You can wind up at a null resulting in a big frequency response dip around the crossover frequency.

A properly designed monitor will use some method to align the center of the lobe with the center line of the cabinet. This can be done by physically moving the tweeter back as with the horn loaded Mackie and Genelec tweeters. Other monitors do this electronically using some sort of circuit that adjusts the relative phase alignment of the woofer and tweeter. New digital designs can add a time delay to the tweeter. Aligning the lobe with the cabinet center is definitely desirable, but the drivers are still vertically separated, so you can't get rid of the lobe itself.

Ok, now we get into some heavy duty physics! There's this obscure little force known as "gravity". It's the thing that tends to keep our feet planted on the floor and our asses planted in our seats. In other words, we move around a lot less vertically than we do horizontally. And since the window of good response from the lobe pattern is pretty narrow, it's preferable to align it vertically with our ears so we get less variation. And since gravity dictates that he live in a primarily horizontal world, our ears evolved with a horizontal separation making us much more sensitive to horizontal spatial information than they are to vertical. Hence another reason why we don't want a narrow response window in the horizontal plane.

The End.

barefoot

[knightfly]

So, in other words, in my semi-ignorance I managed to get it mostly right?

[barefoot]

Yup. Sorry I missed your post Steve.

And you where right to say "you can move your head somewhat from side to side and NOT change the time alignment" for the vertical orientation. If you look at the geometry of most monitors the distance from the listening position to the acoustic centers of the woofers and tweeters changes with the horizontal angle as well. It's just not as dramatic as in the vertical plane.

barefoot

[barefoot]

Oh yeah, just an extra thought.

Monitors like the Mackies and Genelecs solve this problem as well by positioning the woofer and tweeter acoustic centers in the same vertical axis. This results in a more even horizontal response than normal configurations. But, the tradeoff is the woofer and tweeter are further apart vertically than with most other monitors. This results in a more oblong vertical lobe pattern and a smaller vertical window. Another example is the KRK 7000B. Rather than a horn, it uses a stepped baffle to align the vertical axis while maintaining a smaller woofer/tweeter separation. The problem here however, is that high frequencies from the tweeter can diffract around that edge and reradiate to the listening position. So, there always seems to be a tradeoff somewhere that has to be made.

barefoot

[Markd102]

So, do dual concentric spreakers solve this problem, or do they have their own different problems as a result?

[barefoot]

Mark,

You're right on both counts. Dual concentrics do eliminate these lobing issues but they introduce other problems like horn resonances and intermodulation distortion.

barefoot

[pipelineaudio]

"Can monitors lay on there sides ?"

does the pope crap in the woods?

no wait

does a bear have wooden balls?

no no wait

is Howdy Doody Catholic?

what do I know, I'll stick NS-10's straight up sometimes