In yer face!!!

[Aurora]

Hey,
I've been recording for a while now and my drum tones are always alright, at least you can tell what's going on, not too muddy, and punchy enough.

But I've noticed that it is difficult for me to get that really "in your face" sound with the snare. The only way I can get it to stand out is by applying some serious mids and highs so that it cracks, but obviously that's no good and I'd rather not compromise my recordings due to lack of engineering savvy.

So how do you do it?

And another thing: Kick mic. Beta 52 or d112? Gimmee the scoop.

Thanks,

Rian

[Track Rat]

So much depends on the drums themselves but all that aside, to get in your face, no reverb or very short reverb and compression gets me farther than EQ.
On kick mics, it's like asking which is better, red or blue. The two mics have different colors to them and either could be appropriate on a given song and a particular kick. Personally, I have a couple of D-112's and I like them but I'd like to think that I could get very passable results with just about any decent kick mic. YMMV.

[matty_boy]

I have to echo track rat here, and mention that having a good sounding drum whith is tuned well is the most important step. New heads (both) help a lot as well.

[rushfan33]

Based off of my experience, it really depends also on the style of music you're recording. Sometimes, much of the snare comes from the overheads. In such a case, if you just keep cranking the highs or mids, you're gonna over power the overheads and introduce a harsh sounding snare. What I found to work in many cases (this is all subjective) is to de-EQ some of the highs and bring up the snare track a little. The OH's will take care of the highs for you and the close mic (if miced dencently) will take care of the mids and lows. As far as the B52 and D112, I have them both and they've been evenly as useful. I prefer (on my drums) the B52 but the D112 works great too.... especially on Floor toms.

RF

[rushfan33]

I totally agree with Track and Matty..... One more thing..... you gotta be sure you're not trying to get a picollo sound out of 8" deep snare. It just aint gonna happen. The drum size is very important in relation to the song you're playing.

RF

[chessrock]

Ditto to everything these guys said.

This question would probably better be answered in the drum forum. The kind of sound you get out of a drum kit, or a snare drum in particular, is very much a performance-related issue first. A kit issue second, a tuning issue third, and lastly a recording and/or mixing issue.

Once the first three are addressed, I'd recommend close micing, followed by some compression and/or peak limiting. EQ some of the mids out, as well. Pretty much everything Track Rat said.

[Aurora]

I've been drumming for about ten years and normally people come through with decent drums, or I just have them use mine, which is a great drum, so tuning and instrument quality can be (I hope) ruled out.

Maybe mic placement is to blame? I'm using a beta 57 about 2 inches from the batter head and an inch in from the rim with the mic pointing at roughly a 45 degree angle towards the center. That's just the product of experimentation, I just sort of found that to be the best position I could come up with, but myabe I'm way off.

Now typically I try to throw some highs on the overheads and cut some of the lows so that they are primarily getting cymbals. I normally take out a few db at around 300hz and put in a few at around 4 or 6k. And the overheads and close mic for the snare are always compressed, but not too much. Overly compressed drums on a recording is one of the things I abhor most. But maybe that EQ on the overheads is causing a problem.

The thing is, I typically get snare sounds that are OK, but they get lost if I don't boost the fequencies that make them stand out a bit, and often those are the very same frequencies that are rather obnoxious. I don't know, thoughts?

Thanks so much for your help,

R

[Track Rat]

I usually end up with a 57 back 4-6" from the snare, maybe 3" or so higher than the top of the drum pointed at the rim. Of course this isn't a one size fits all position but I've been backing the mic away from the snare in general rather than more right over the head.

[rushfan33]

Quite possibly...... if your snare is getting lost, it might be fighting another instrument for space in the spectrum. Perhaps the snare isn't the problem.

RF

[y2ray]

I've been drumming for five years and have been a drummy to several bands. what I find to deteriate most as far as the snare drum is concernd is that they put tape or a muffler hoping to get rid of that ping sound that is most prominant in steel snare drums especially if you like to tune it pretty tight. Usually when they put tape on or a muffler it often leaves you with a dry muddy sound. Dave Weckl recently stopped by my home town to do a drum clinic and showed me a new muffler for snare drums that fits on the snare like a clamp. it also has a spring in it so when you hit it you get the raw, phat sound that you want and it doesn't leave a long ping at the end. definately check the clamp style muffler out at your local music store.

[chessrock]

Originally posted by rushfan33
Quite possibly...... if your snare is getting lost, it might be fighting another instrument for space in the spectrum. Perhaps the snare isn't the problem.

I think Rushfan's got it. Plus, I think you may be focusing on the wrong frequencies. 3K will bring out a bit more crack, but the beef of the snare will be around 200 hz. It's easy for that to get lost, because there are many things that can interfere with that and bury it: A boomy accoustic guitar, a lot of male vocals, close-miced electric guitar, you name it.

Best thing to do is to cut 2-4 db @ 200 hz on everything else that might be interfering. Which could be just about anything and/or everything (with the possible exception of tamborine or shaker).

[VotaIdiota]

I'd take chessrock's statement one further and suggest high-passes on most of your tracks (except, say, bass and kick).

[Stealthtech]

Heres what I do, just for thought..Work with an EQ, a little cut around 800hz, a fairly wide boost around 5k. Select an appropriate reverb, plates are usually nice. Set the lvls of the kick and snare so that they bare the proper relation to each other. Pan the snare right up the middle along with bass.

[SS454]

If you use a gate(on the kick) with a fast attack you can kinda simulate a beater sound. that with a Pultec compressor, more often than not, will get a good result.
I've tried D12s,D112s and Re20s I like the D112.

[BuildingStudios]

... I do agree with chessrock. But just out of curiosity... what kind of overhead mics are you using. A decent set of overheads that are placed well can change sound of your kit like nothing else.
remember its not just the snare mic that is giving you your snare sound.
... about the kick mic thing... I really have gotten good results out of the beta 52, but i have both...

[littledog]

usually "in our face" is a synonym for compression.

[Aurora]

At times comp can really suck the life out of anything to which it is applied. But I use it, just with a relatively moderate ratio.

And I'm using a beta 57 on the snare, but my overheads are kinda crappy; little condensers from a somewhat substandard drum mic kit.

Out of curiosity, where are you guys putting your overheads? I've heard of quite a range of mic positions and tried the majority of them but I'm always open to something new. And room mics? Where and what kind? Last session I used a little SD Oktava cardioid and it sounded really cool, but maybe a LD would be better, I dunno.

You guys rule, thanks so much and keep it comin'.

R

[Track Rat]

My standard answer to this subject, Octava MC-012's when I want to tame harsh cymbals as they have a very nice round, darker sound and AT4033's (medium sized diaphrams) when I want something more accurate. Both through an HHB mic pre, high pass engaged straight to tape, er, disc.

[littledog]

I will agree that overheads/positioning can make a huge difference. I get really punchy drum sounds using Recorderman's method (in my case, using the Oktava MC012's).

Put one exactly 2 drumstick lengths directly over the center of the snare. Then measure two drum stick lengths from the snare center to a point over the drummer's right shoulder and put the second overhead exactly at that spot. By keeping the mics focused on the snare with perfect phase coherency between the two, that's where you get your "punch".

It sounds weird, but I've had both clients and other engineers rave about the overhead sounds I've gotten this way. I take no credit for this... Recorderman was kind enough to teach it to me on recording.org.

[Aurora]

Thanks, littledog, that sounds awesome.

The only problem is that Recorderman's method sounds a bit too one-size-fits-all in theory. I mean, folks come in all the time with different cymbal setups and stuff of that nature, it sounds like that doesn't always accomodate variables very well. Any variations of the method you've had to try?

And also, what is the consensus on EQ for the overheads? And should they be compressed quite a bit or little at all? Without comp, my snare threatens to peak my ovhd mics constantly, but with too much it squashes everything and sucks the life out of it.

Thoughts?

thanks

R

[littledog]

Originally posted by Aurora
Thanks, littledog, that sounds awesome.

The only problem is that Recorderman's method sounds a bit too one-size-fits-all in theory. I mean, folks come in all the time with different cymbal setups and stuff of that nature, it sounds like that doesn't always accomodate variables very well. Any variations of the method you've had to try?

And also, what is the consensus on EQ for the overheads? And should they be compressed quite a bit or little at all? Without comp, my snare threatens to peak my ovhd mics constantly, but with too much it squashes everything and sucks the life out of it.

Thoughts?

thanks

R

As far as one size fits all, most people I know tend to use only one or two basic drum mic'ing schemes anyway - this is just a different one. So far, it's worked for me on every kit and style I've tried it on, but that doesn't mean you'll like it as much as I do - I'm just suggesting you try it once before trying to argue that it might not work.

The advantage is that it focuses the overheads on the snare. Most people end up with overheads that pick up more cymbals than anything else. This forces them to become more dependant on close mics for the drums themselves, so often end up just rolling off all the low end on the overheads and using them just to get a good cymbal sound. Recorderman's method still gets a great cymbal sound, but you are also getting a great snare sound as well. And it seems to help the kick and toms too.

As I said, try it first. You might like it.

As far as the rest - I usually don't EQ or compress my overheads while tracking. I control clipping by setting the gain on my mic preamps appropriately. Admittedly, drummers tend to play louder during songs than during sound checks, so I often have to adjust the mic preamp volumes downward from time to time on each particular song. Since I record digitally at 24 bit, it's not that big a concern to have every track as "hot" as possible, so I can err on the side of caution with gain settings.

If you are using very sesnitive mics (like the Earthworks QTC's, e.g.) try using an in-line pad before the signal gets to the preamp.

[MikeA]

Originally posted by littledog
usually "in our face" is a synonym for compression.

Littledog is right on. A technique that is used by a lot of the big guys to get that in yer face sound is to get a good mix on drums and then assign them to 2 of your bussess. Take the busses into a compressor and squash the daylights out of them. Return them on two new faders and bring them up to blend in with the drum mix. Another variation on that is to run the drum mix out into the studio and crank it up loud. Mic the room with a couple of mics (play with mic placement) and bring that back into the console on again, 2 unused faders. You can also pass them through a compressor on the way back to the board. A lot of that intimate sound is due to strong early reflections coupled with the direct sound heard by the listener.

[littledog]

Some nice suggestions from Mike that have definitely contributed to a lot of the great drum sounds we are used to hearing on recordings.

But a word of warning: if you are doing all of this in the digital domain, when you remix the compressed or remic'ed drum tracks back in with the originals, you'll probably want to slide the new tracks around to line up perfectly with the old ones, as the various bussing and compressing introduces a latency or delay on the new tracks that will give a phase-y sound when you recombine them that probably is NOT what you want.

[MikeA]

How much of the snare sound comes from the snare mic and how much from the OHs? You mentioned that they are kind of crappy mics. That may be a contributor. Can the drummer get the snare to crack in the tracking room? If it ain't crackin there it ain't gonna crack on tape.