vocals

[cdunn]

I am a vocalist in country music. I go alot of places and sing but never have recorded in a proffesional studio. I have recorded in a small home studio and results sound like crap. I don't understand how i sound so good when singing live, but sound off key in certain places recorded. The music also doesn't have the kick to it. I go to lots of concerts and hear these professionals sing. If you listen closely alot of times you can here mistakes in their voice. Why is it that they sound so good on record and not as in concert. Are there certain devices to make you sound better. y

[Tucci]

Well,

At a live concert the performer only gets one chance to sing it right. In a studio they may sing a song twenty times to get a keeper take. Also, in the studio they can record a take and then go back and rerecord just a small section if they wish to get rid a mistake. Plus, studios use tons of fancy equipment like compressors and reverbs and whatnot to make it sound good.

Tucci

[Buck62]

The reason that you didn't sound as good in the studio was that most singers (especially karaoke singers) sing in bars where the room acoustics are different, they've had a few drinks, and "think" that they sound pretty good.
The bar patrons think so, too... but remember, they've been drinking!
Being in a controlled environment with nothing but a microphone in front of you is a totally different situation. What you put on tape is exactly what you sang into that mic... and it's completely unforgiving.
I have a friend who is an awesome karaoke singer (with her own karaoke business) who can copy about 20 different female rock singers with absolute perfection.
The minute she stepped into my studio, she just couldn't get comfortable and needed 4 hours and 12 shots of Southern Comfort before she finally got the vocal track laid down just right.... and this girl sings about 6 songs a night, 5 nights a week with perfection!
It takes a bit to get used to, but eventually it gets easier in the studio environment. You just have to settle down and keep trying until you get it right.
It takes time.

[Buck62]

Hey!!!
I'm at 300 posts!!!

Wooo Hooooo!!!!

Now.. Where did I put that bottle of Southern Comfort?

[Rev E]

Gibs,

Antares Autotune is that "real-time" device. You can get it as hardware or software. I've seen it a few online gear places retailing for about $700. I think musicians friend and full compass.

Rev E

[Rev E]

cdunn,

Other than what Tucci and Buck62 said, professional studios also have devices like Antares Autotune, Eventide harmonizers or other pitch correcting devices to get things in tune after recording. After they spend lots of time to get the vocals close to perfect, automatic pitch correcting devices such as these get things even closer to perfect.

I've read a lot of gear lists from commercial studios that list some the gear I mentioned above. I can only assume that they're using this stuff in recordings or at mixdown.

Rev E

[gibs]

I have heard that there is a real time device that people use in live concerts to correct vocals...if this is not an urban legend, which it might be, I wonder how it would work...seems like there'd have to be some kind of delay so the thing could process the signal, and if that was the case, wouldn't the singer have an awful time trying to keep in beat?......probably just a rumor.....gibs

[gibs]

Thanks Rev E...I just assumed the Antares was only for fixing after the fact...cool...gibs

[Buck62]

Does the Antares really work that well?
Does it sound natural?
Is it worth the money?
What's the meaning of life?

(ok.. scratch that last question)

[Rev E]

Buck62,

I've never personally heard it in a studio environment yet. But from what I understand, there are many, many commercial records made with it.

It's usually used at mixdown after the vocals or other material has been sung. In a live setting, it it's heard by the audience, but the singer will not monitor the "tuned" version. It seems that it is used best to correct minor pitch problems where the take may be the best emotional take, but has a few minor pitch problems. From the sounds of it, many pop vocals (especially the backgrounds) have some sort of pitch correction in them. Do you really think that these boy bands and others can harmonize so precisely in tune?

I've been told that Kid Rock's "Only God Knows Why" makes heavy use of Autotune or some other pitch correction device. By the way, I've seen a scaled down software version of Antares Autotune for $99. I think that the full software version is ~$200. I'm not sure where I saw it, but it was one of the common major gear retailers.

Rev E

[Nate]

head over to Antaeres' site and download the 10 day fully working demo (just use it when you have a bunch of vocals to do). Also, check out their mic modelling program (also for 10 days). The web address isn't antaeres.com and I don't remember what it is...never mind, found it! www.antares-systems.com
yo yo yo, check it out, dawgs!
this assumes that you are using your computer for your tracking (I think it's VST and DX)

[Rev E]

Thanks for the link Nate.

Rev E

[Tucci]

Man, what is the world coming to? We gotta have machines to make us sound in tune? No thanks. It makes me queasy to think about it.

Tucci

[tdukex]

Tucci, you can probably sing well. Most of us can't and never will be able to. Whether it's 12 shots of Southern Comfort or a pitch corrector, we'll take whatever help we can get. Want to sell me your vocal cords?

[Rev E]

Tucci,

I can understand your point, but... as homerecordists, we often wonder what it is that high-end commercial studios are using to get those amazing sounds. Well, this tool is one of them. It's not a cure-all, and overuse of it (unless it's being used as an effect) will make things sound weird. Before you pass judgement on it, think about this:
Do you overdub in your recordings?
Do you ever play a part over until it's perfect or close to perfect?
Do you use an effects processor/compressor/EQ?
Do you multitrack your recordings?

If you do any of these then you've produced something that's not technically a "natural", "real" or "live" performance. Anything after the first take is not technically a "natural" or "raw" performance.

The real question is what are you striving for in your recordings? Many people (definetly, commercial labels and producers) are striving for perfection or a "perfect" emotional performance. After all, these records are going to be down in history for ages to come. So if one is striving for perfection, it's obvious that pitch is an issue of concern.

I agree with you that it's a scary proposition to have devices that make people sing in tune, but unless you're into recording everything live, unprocessed and unedited, then you are doing something "unnatural" to some degree. Pick your poison or your degree of poison, but either way, it's still poison.

Rev E

[Ray J]

Getting back to the original question, cdunn, this may be obvious, but check your monitor mix, to make sure you are hearing your voice in relation with the music. Also, are you using chorus on your vocal? This can bend the pitch and make you sound just a little off key, especially when a lot of chorus is applied.

[Tucci]

Rev E,

Good points. You are right, almost none of us record without using some sort of machine to help us sound better (although I don't use much).

But -

Machines that correct pitch still bother me. It just feels anti-human.

Shiver

Franco

[six]

Hey cdunn, I'm not THAT good in singing - but think about that: when you sing karaoke or in another live situation, people will forget what they heard. Smaller mistakes will not even be noticed.
Recording your singing, it will exist for as long as you like - on tape or on hard drive, whatever. You can even rewind and listen to your mistakes over and over again. So that's probably why you - and I'm sure other people too - think you sound that good live.

Another question: do you think it's because you're off pitch?
I myself don't like my singing and think it sounds awful because I don't like my voice (recorded). I don't have much problems with intonation - anyway, that's not not the point, it's more the sound of the voice. that's why I don't give a sh*t on auto-tuners.

puah, that was long. sorry for my bad english - haven't had that much practice lately :-)

[Helmut]

With my voice sounding something like the bard in Asterix and Obelix , I welcome technology... (sorry naturalists)

[Rev E]

Tucci,

I can certainly feel your uneasiness. I was really just making a point, something to think about. I'm not afraid to use technology to enhance what's already there. Despite me opinion on the subject, you'll still find me taking lots of time to get artists that I work with to sing it until it's right (or the best that it's going to be). THen I'll use "tools" and "tricks" to make it better.

I suppose in the defense of a more natural recording/mixing style, compression, eq, reverb and most effects are generally used to enhance what is already created by the "talent". Autotuners and the lot are actually changing the source material in ways different from how it was originally performed, thereby attempting to substitute for the lack of talent. So I CAn see your uneasiness.

I think it's about moderation. Use the tools to enhance talent. Don't record people who have no talent. Ultimately, they/you will get caught.

Rev E

[This message has been edited by Rev E (edited 06-06-2000).]

[Tucci]

Rev E,

Exactly! You said it so much better than I.

Reverb,compression etc. doesn't make the performance something it's not - it just puts the performance in a different setting and allows the listener to enjoy it more.

Auto-tune makes someone who can't sing a note sound like they have perfect-pitch. It's like one of those suits that super-heros wear to make them look real buff.

Tucci

[jitteringjim]

Dude, it's magic.
The other guys are on the right track here... FX are everything.

[Tucci]

Not you too jitteringjim!

Everyone is being seduced by the world of effects - they're swallowing the pill that leads one to believe that the effects make the music and not the songwriter and singer. The world of music is just going down the drain...sob.

What about Beethoven and Bach and Vivaldi and Dylan and the Beach Boys, well not the Beach Boys, but can I not listen to all this fxless music and love it? Can I not love it more than the fx sodden wonder bread that is played on pop radio today...

Tucci

[ME]

I completely understand the attitude of auto-tune'ing and adding other un-natural devices on a vocal track. To add to the discussion, I use Auto-Tune quite often. If you try to do extreem pitch changes it does sound terribly un-natural, but with small changes it can turn 40 takes into one by capturing the emotional essence that you had been trying to convey with the 40 takes. It also is the perfect tool to get rid of that slightly chorused effect that comes naturaly when you make double tracks to fatten certain areas of a tune up (like harmonies, choruses, ect...).

Don't mean to butt-in but I was totaly against the idea untill I did some work on Pro Tools and saw some of these other effects used. In modern rock and pop they use all of this technology to it's fullest! Hell, they are even quantizing live drum parts with Pro Tools...tell me if that's natural!

The key point here for us do-it-yourselfer's is that if we want our music (if you are shopping it at all) to sound like the pro production stuff then we will all have to get on board some time or another???

Later;
ME http://MichaelErwin.cjb.net

P.S. here is a tune using auto-tune...I don't think that anyone would know the difference if I didn't tell them.(Windows Media Stream) http://members.aol.com/meonguitar/IcePrincess.asx

[Rev E]

Michael,

Great tune! I really enjoyed it. It is very professional: tight, in-tune, non-competing licks.

Rev E

This one should be a winner for you and your band.