noise reduction every time?

[dobro]

My gear's good, and my tracking techniques isn't *that* bad, yet the first discernible difference between the CDs I produce and commercial product is that mine are noiser. They have hiss. I don't like hiss.

So, here's a question: do you use Cool noise reduction facility as a matter of course on everything you do?

[AudioMaverick]

Whenever possible... Some instances are not practicle, such as live performances with noisy crowds in the track(s).

[mixmkr]

bluntly...your tracking isn't "that" great if you "have" to use noise reduction all the time. Cooledit's noise reduction feature is probably one of the best available, imo...but try getting in and doing some editing in the quiet spots. Unless you're just recording extremely quiet piano sonatas (which I know you aren't ), hiss down about 50dB shouldn't really be that audible. Where is your hiss coming from? That answer should point the way towards the cure...really. You do edit, don't you? ..and I mean volume amplitudes...and gating...etc...you know...that kinda stuff... You're not using Gidge's Yamaha Pacifica are ya!!

[dobro]

Gee, this is worth investigating.

Well, in the first place, the hiss isn't *that* bad. But I can hear it, and commercial CDs don't have it. I compared a CD Emeric sent me of his music, and his CD has similar hiss. Emeric's got really good tracking technique, so I assumed that it's something that happens a lot on homer stuff.

Okay, one thing at a time:

"Cooledit's noise reduction feature is probably one of the best available, imo...but try getting in and doing some editing in the quiet spots."

What I typically do is take the level down to zero during the portions of tracks that have no playing or singing on them. Is that what you mean?

"Unless you're just recording extremely quiet piano sonatas (which I know you aren't ), hiss down about 50dB shouldn't really be that audible."

I still do a lot of stuff with just voice and nylon-string, really quiet sometimes, so it's an issue.

"Where is your hiss coming from?"

Dunno. It's immediately audible from the moment the session starts playback. I've tried various settings on both the input and output gains on my preamps, but it doesn't make much difference.

"You do edit, don't you? ..and I mean volume amplitudes...and gating...etc...you know...that kinda stuff..."


Edit what? Like I said before, I use the volume envelopes to cut the level on all portions that aren't music. Gating? No, I've never used gating, though. I thought it was just for drums.

"You're not using Gidge's Yamaha Pacifica are ya!!"

No way. Whatever it is...

[rambo]

Try to record a track with just clicks, like hitting two drumsticks. Do it on different levels.... then check if get hiss...if it's constant... if it changes or anyting.... if it not constant you might have ann oscillation somwhere in your system... it could generate a hiss type of sound.....
Just an idea....

rgds

[TexRoadkill]

I would never even think of using noise reduction on anything but restoration projects or field recordings. If the hiss is worse then the NR artifacts then your hiss really is 'that bad'.

[AudioMaverick]

Tex (& others),

I used to think the same thing. I used to think Dolby-B was good enough. Then, Dolbly-C. Then, Cassettes no longer sounded good enough for the car, anymore.

When I didn't know how to use the tools properly, they did more damage than good. Now, it's another useful tool. Once, -70dB noise floor was acceptable. Now, I'm getting -98dB without any issues. And, -102dB really enhances a classical guitar.

There are more artifacts in the background noise reducing an otherwise optimum recording. Think of it as being similar to turntable rumble. They weren't in the original performance, so I don't want them in the final product. I do have to say that a professional studio environment would negate much of the reason I do NR in the first place. But, I record in a home.

But, I respect your opinion. Who knows... maybe I'll realize I'm doing more harm than good, some day. I'm pleased with my recordings. You are welcome to check them out at www.AudioMaverick.com (in the Samples section). The older recordings sound worse, because I knew less at the time (:>)

[mixmkr]

Dobro....as far as the editing...zero amplitude-ing was what I was talking about in your "quiet" sections..which it sounds like you are doing...either on the computer, gating...whatever method...it really doesn't matter. (there is a 'valid' point that that can cause bad effects..such as on drums...as losing the snare rattles when the kick drum hits, and stuff like that...losing the "real ambience" of the set...but that's another issue, for sure). Coming from a analog school, my computer setup with just a Layla soundcard and even "generic", regular pres..like even the Mackies, my noise floor is now WAY below what the 2" multitrack would give. We're talking 98dB VS 75dB....maybe...or so. HUGE difference. I suspect that the hiss may even be coming from your playback system, and is not on your recordings. Is that a route you've checked? Probably, because when you're not playing back, I would assume the hiss is not there. Otherwise...like someone suggested...try recording silence, and start eliminating things. I give you credit that it is not just the ambient noise in your room being picked up with your mic...but don't fool yourself that your rooms are actually that "quiet" to yield the results you are looking for, when infact they might not be. What do your cooledit meters tell you when recording silence? Not the best meters, for sure...but at least an indication. Maybe your equipment isn't really all that "quiet" after all. Tough to diagnose without being there, but I'd start just recording silence, and start adding stuff....preamps, cables, mics..
One last question...do you get hiss on a zero amplituded track on playback? If so...then of course obviouly it's not on your tracks, and after the fact. I may be stating some really no-brainer stuff...but hopefully it might be a start.

[brokenwindow]

Maybe u just have some noisy pre-amps... Try one preamp on a track..then use another(if u have 2) on another with the exact same stuff as the first..(mics, cables, volumes..) and compare the 2...

[dobro]

Okay, I've got a noisy room (it's interesting - when I put on the cans to do some overdubbing, I can hear building noise that the mics are picking up that my own ears can't hear unaided - I think I'm 20 % deaf or something - I mean, how would I know?). But if it was room noise, I'd pick that up when I listened to playback - I'd hear the person flushing the toilet next door, or the argument shouted through the wall. Not only that, but I *can* hear external-to-the-studio noises during playback: although I've soundproofed a bit, I've got a load of birds during the day and crickets at night *JUST* outside my boarded up windows, and the sound still penetrates sometimes, and you can hear the wildlife on the tracks when things get quiet. I like that. But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about hiss.

So, I'm intrigued by this sound of noisefloor. How do I measure my noisefloor? And having done that, how do you go about lowering it?

[mixmkr]

Originally posted by mixmkr
Tough to diagnose without being there, but I'd start just recording silence, and start adding stuff....preamps, cables, mics..
One last question...do you get hiss on a zero amplituded track on playback? If so...then of course obviouly it's not on your tracks, and after the fact. I may be stating some really no-brainer stuff...but hopefully it might be a start.

additionally...look at your meters in cooledit. Ya know...record able a track..then click on the meters...and you can let your meters tell you how much "noise" is in your system. I typically get high 80's..low 90's, with fadars down, and just nothing running thru the system. (I was amiss!!, when I previously stated -98dB). Do you do that to set levels when recording in Cooledit??

[dobro]

I don't use a mixer for tracking, but I tried Cool's meters on a signal through my pre with both input and output gain at zero. Cool's meters froze at -84 for some reason, even before I got the gains down to zero. Same thing with both 1.2 and 2.0. Strange. Anway, if the meters had continued functioning properly, they would have gone even lower than -84, probably somewhere around -90, I'd guess.

[RD423]

You could have your mic volume to loud because I had that same problem as soon as I hit record I could see that it was something there so I got frustrated but then I just turned my mic volume down and that helped get rid of it so maybe you should give it a try it might work for you and if dont what did you lose??

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by dobro
So, I'm intrigued by this sound of noisefloor. How do I measure my noisefloor? And having done that, how do you go about lowering it?

When you have a mic up at the normal recording level look where the VU meter in CoolEdit is. As I recall the meters in CEP don't go all that low so if you can see the signal the noise is probably pretty bad. This will pick up ambient noise also so it is indicative of your entire noise floor. If you want to test just your preamp then crank it up without a mic attached.

The best way to lower the noise floor is with 24bit recording and a very clean mic/preamp combo. The C1 is one hot mofo of a mic and that would definately help give you a good SNR. Dynamics like the 57 are the hardest to use for quiet stuff since they demand that the preamp work very hard to get the signal louder.