song structure: do you do this?

[participant]

EDIT: WHoa, very sorry about the multiple postings... but HR.com started screwin up!! Here's the post... whatever... that never got posted 4 times

---

k, this isn't the usual method I've used for writing songs (then again, I'm just taking songwriting/recording back up after being away for the better part of 6 years)... I'm just wondering if you've used something similar.

Had this partial tune lyin around for about 4 years... sittin' on the VS880 with just the first minute or so written... a while back, I pulled all the .wavs off and arranged them in Cubase VST/32... just getting around to this song now. (A rock tune with hard rock elements, and a lounge jazz feel in the verse...)

The structure WAS this:

A (intro), B (chorus - no words), C (verse), D (bridge), B (chorus)...

ended at 1:40, or so. After starting the project back up, I realized verse two was natural right after that so...

ABCDBC

Then, I got stuck. Spent all day yesterday, and most of the day before yesterday sitting there riffing, playing the song, getting the feel, trying to pull something out of my butt, knowing I wanted a heavy rock-out scream-if-you-got-lungs type section. Finally came up with a cool off-tempo riff (just guitar; no bass/drums yet) for the next part...

ABCDBC... E (heavy part)...

but the ending chord from the heavy part was something similar to a suspended 7th... leading me further away from the core of the song... I couldn't figure out how to get back. I was up and down the neck, trying different chord positions/forms/whatever to try to get back to tonic, but I got lost.

Thought about reusing a section, but couldn't off the top of my head decide. Here's what happened today: Took out a notebook, wrote out the structure (as I just did for you...) then tried to see what part (on paper) I could reuse next. As you may have chosen yourself, I tried

D

Worked Then, of course bridge (D) -> chorus so

ABCDBCE ... D (bridge, variation 1), B chorus...

I wanted the song to rock out at the end, so...

ABCDBCEDB (B/E) (heavy riff, with lead licks and vocal hook from chorus)

What I'd like to know is... does anybody else write songs like that? Do you sometimes have to break out the notebook to get an overview of the structure, then continue? Mind you, I've only ever had to do this two or three times... and I've written about 20 songs in 7 years (finally getting around to re-recording those woeful 4-track demos!)

Sometimes, the structure just flows very easily... but without writing the structure out, I could have easily followed that suspended 7th way out to pasture, messing around with second dominants, augmented ninths, and had about a 10 minute song

Your input would be interesting


Chad

[Sennheiser]

I just have a question, no comment really.

Why or how did you get stuck on a suspended 7th? Did going back to a natural 7th and then the tonic not sound good for this tune?

Did the different A B C etc. parts not all lead with the tonic?

Glad you got it fixed. Sometimes writing music is a real bitch.

[participant]

Hey thanks for the reply

It was more of not having the structure in my head; I wanted to keep the song "making sense"... but I had to "write it out" to figure out what to do next.

I could write something that would have worked with that chord (actually thinking about it, it was a C# with a 4 in the bass... whatever that's called... some type of suspended chord. Tonic is D#) but I needed to keep the structure tight; didn't want it getting out of control, with 17 different parts

As it is, the song (finished in my head, not yet recorded! ) will use a two bar bass and drums break right after that and go into a revised version of the bridge.

Thanks again


Chad

[Tom Hicks]

Any chord can be musically resolved to any other chord by the use of a diminished chord as a "leading tone".
I'm not really a through-composed kind of writer,tending to stick to traditional song forms instead.But feel free to go trail-blazing and remember that your buddy Mr.Diminished means you are only one step away from home.

[participant]

Thanks, Tom. Yeah, I'd read that somewhere (I think it was Fretboard Logic II)... but forgot it Thanks. The bridge of this song actually connects up very well with the end of that particular part; my problem was not "seeing all the trees in the forest"


Chad

[Scooter B]

Partciapant,

I think anything that gets you out of a "this is the way you always do it rut" has good creative potential. I like songs to throw a few suprises at me as long as it still flows as a musical piece. Your described method may be a very good way to keep yourself from getting stuck in rutvillle.

Unfortunately the mass media including radio does not like creativity most of the time. If your goal is to eventually publish or record for airplay with comercial success in mind you may have to stick with the more traditional formats.

Personally I say go with the creativity and don't compromise your ideas when writing and give me hte unexpected as long as its good.

[participant]

Scooter....

...where's that ringing reminder that we all learned in first year business management... namely "location, location, location"?? LOL when I first saw that.

Yeah, without getting OT I agree to an extent about 'creativity' -- but what if your music... when all is said and done... comes out sounding like an established act? IMO if the music is honest, whether or not it sounds like Pearl Jam, The Beatles, The Gypsy Kings, or whoever, it should be able to stand on its own.

IMO also if you're trying to record something different... like an oscilloscope trace while breaking lightbulbs and mumbling into a mic (I actually heard a track on garageband like that!).... that is just being different TO be different; it's not artistic. I feel once you get to the honest core of your feelings, whatever music comes out of there is the best stuff -- whether or not it sounds like someone else.

That's why I can't rag on Creed or Puddle of Mudd. Even tho they way overplay "Blurry", for example, I feel it is an excellent, honest song. Yeah... they sound alot like other bands. Since it's honest... IMO so what?

2¢

Back O.T., yeah I guess I just don't have Mozart's ability to see everything and hear everything in my head ( LOL ) Writing out the structure helps, especially when the arrangement gets convoluted.

Thanks Scooter


Chad

[Scooter B]

Participant,

I agree with you 100 % on being creative and not being different just to be different.

Metalica (not my style mind you) generated huge sales and following with little airplay during their early career. Early on their songs were deemed too long for radio airplay but they were good at their style and worked around the limitations of the system.

I just think everyone should understand when they are getting into an uphill battle and know what to expect.

You seem market savy with recognizing my "location, location, location" reference I decided to go back with my actual location in case it enabled me to network with someone here locally but who knows I may change it every couple of months or so.

I think next time I get stuck with a writing project I will try your more visual chart method of arranging ideas and looking for directions.

[Slackmaster2K]

What's the difference in being conformative just to be conformative and being different just to be different?

Slackmaster 2000

[badgas]

Originally posted by Tom Hicks
Any chord can be musically resolved to any other chord by the use of a diminished chord as a "leading tone".
I'm not really a through-composed kind of writer,tending to stick to traditional song forms instead.But feel free to go trail-blazing and remember that your buddy Mr.Diminished means you are only one step away from home.

Very good post Tom.
It came at a good time for me, too.
Like Part, I was looking at the forest. I've been working on a song for weeks trying to bring the chorus back to the verse, and when I read you post it clicked.
I knew that, but being fairly new at trying some decent songwriting, I was looking through a fog.
Thanks.

[Scooter B]

"What the difference with being conformative just to conform or being different just to be different?

In my mind it all comes down to maturity and your motivation behind doing it.

Being different just to get attention or to be rebellious is not art or truly creative to me. Not being afraid to be different because something leads you that way (wether it is passion, artistic vision or God Himself) and being aware of the potential consequenses without being being afraid of them is the essense of creative self expression.

Example;
I will imediately question the musical and artistic value of an artist or group that resorts to exploiting controversy just to get attention. Sure there is a lot of competition out there to "make it" professionally in the music business but if your stuff is good enough - it doesn't need the controversy to sell it. If someone resorts to pushing the boundary of "acceptable behaviour" just to get attention that tels me they don't have confidence in their music to stand on its own and it is just as bad as "selling out" IMHO. It may in fact be good stuff but it sends up a red flag of insecurity and lack of confidence to me.

However I will respect an artist or group (even if I disagree with them) if they deal with a controversial issue they are passionate about at their own professional risk when they could just be silent and play it safe.

The difference may not be easily evident on the surface but it will reveal itself in their character.

Does character have anything to do with the proccess of songwriting? Probably not alot...but it does have to do with the question I set out to awnser.

Anyway ask me a question and 9/10 you will get philosophically analytical awnser. It just drives my wife nuts...he he he.

[Scooter B]

Man can I kill a thread or what?

Sorry if I got too philosophical but that's just me.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by Tom Hicks
Any chord can be musically resolved to any other chord by the use of a diminished chord as a "leading tone".
I'm not really a through-composed kind of writer,tending to stick to traditional song forms instead.But feel free to go trail-blazing and remember that your buddy Mr.Diminished means you are only one step away from home.

Interesting. Do you play a diminished chord with the root in the older chord or the newer chord you are trying to bridge too? I'm assuming it's the older chord.

[JR#97]

Originally posted by Slackmaster2K
What's the difference in being conformative just to be conformative and being different just to be different?

Slackmaster 2000

There is no difference... it's called conforming to non-conformity.

Chadster, I have a rock/loungy tune, too... I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

[participant]

Originally posted by JR#97
Chadster, I have a rock/loungy tune, too... I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

[participant]

JR, this thing is a few days away from "done" ... now, which days those would be is anybody's guess (should be the next few tho)

BTW thanks everyone for the thoughts in this thread, which I just realized I abandoned


Chad