Singing techniques - can i get help here?

[yiordanaki]

Hey,
I was just wondering if i could get some pointers from anybody on some singing techniques and this is the closest forum i could find to my topic.

Firstly the low notes, I sing a hell of alot (drive my family crazy) but i practice heaps and try new things so basically i can "sing" but i was wondering if there was any warmups or exercises that could increase my lower register??

Secondly the change from singing to falsetto - Its getting smoother and smoother as i get older but surely theres a way to get that nice changeover ( aka "Live") ?? any hints??

And finally (for now) the "controlled yell/scream". I really love the way Dave Grohl (foo fighters) does his heavy singing parts and also Creed have a decent sound. This is something i have been practicing heaps - trying to control a loud "yelling" vocal section" - and if there are any pointers - please - they would be greatly appreciated.
I have read some of the posts in this forum and you all sound very educated so if anyone can help please do - your advice will not go to waste.

yiordanaki

[destorctr]

there is a few things i know of that might help you sing fist controlled breathing is key to all those areas you need help in one exercise i recomend is take a drink of water and place it in the back of your throat then sing in a gargling fation the theory is that your vocal cords when used right holding and makin notes with provide enough pressure to keep the water in your throat if you strain or push too much the water will either drain down your throat or blow out the front of your mouth but if done corectlly you can hold the water in back of throat and go throught whole range keepin each note with same intensity of breath and also when singing you should be able to let breath out at the end of a line and not have to gasp thus controllin your breathing from the diaphram will allow you more power with out so much breath

[yiordanaki]

Thanks, destorctr

I'll try that asap. Thanks for the tip, i try to think about my breathing but when you're "in the music" its the last thing you've got on your mind!

thanks

[demensia]

Id try it, but I think Id choke to death..
Do you have any safer tips

I need some help in these areas too. I just scream gore metal because im a terrible singer.

I can hum low jerry cantrell style too but everything sounds the same and I suck.

[badgas]

I'm not a singer and don't even claim to be. I squeel, like I'm stuck.
'Oink'
I just tried the water exercise. Took a half a dozen tries and an arm load of towels but I finally did part of it.

And I just did my hair. It's a messy affair, but I can see how it can help. Guess after I get the hang of it I can use a kleenx.

[participant]

www.rogerlove.com

[powderfinger]

the book "singing for the stars" is excellent.........learning to sing from a book or lessons sounds kinda lame, but it is the only way if you aren't naturally blessed with an amazing voice to improve.....otherwise you're likely to damage your voice rather than help it.........

[RSM]

I replied to another thread about singing raspy with some tips that may help you out.I teach alot of students how to do the yelling / agressive singing without hurting thier voice so i may be able to help you with your "Dave grohl"sound.Most of it is psychological.You just need to learn how to project and find a emotional trigger that will get you right kind of projection.
Here's a quick example.
When i want to do the Grohl type yelling i get a image in my head of a situation that i would use that kind of tone naturally and use it to channel my voice correctly.For me Road rage at someone making a right hand turn from a left hand lane usually does it!One of my students uses the image of having to catch someone leaving through a door at the end of a long hallway who is leaving with your car keys.You have to perk up and really get the persons attention before the door closes.HEEEEEEYYYYYYYY!!
Another one i use for the really heavy music(slipknot,etc)is to imagine yourself in a football stadium yelling for your favorite team.You'll get the image of that huge ROOAR that comes out.The word BEARS seems to fit that pretty well!.Let me know if i can adress something more specifically and check the other thread too.Hope this helps in some way,it's hard to teach sound through typing!
Good Luck

[smellyfuzz]

Ok GUYS,

I'm sorry but there is a need for some harsh truth here.

At HR.com, no one can tell you how to play guitar, bass, drums, ect...

The same goes for singing, actually in my opinion, singing can not be self taught, or learned out of a book, web-site, or tapes.

Singing needs to be learned with a person present who can judge your voice.

At my first lesson, I was told not to trust MY ears but to trust his.(meaning my couch)


Sean

http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/...d=1691&alid=-1

[yiordanaki]

hey guys,

Destorctr - I did that gurgling thing you suggested, i find it helps me warm up too, and "coats" my vocal chords. (no-one threw anything at me at my last gig anyway)! thanks mate!

RSM - thanks mate, Are you an actual singing teacher? Awesome.

Smellyfuzz - I beg to differ, and id have to say you're wrong. Alot can be said for singing techniques. Basically - if you dont know how to manipulate the instrument (which vocal chords are) how can improve??? those basics can definitely be taught in a book or a website. Of course to fine tune to a sound you like - you may be right - someone has to hear it. but basically i think with practice anyone can sing,

thanks all
Yiordanaki

[stump]

I agree with yiordanaki I think there's a lot to be learned from a website like this... while you can't learn everything you can get some pointers to point you in the right direction

[digia]

I've been a singer all my life and the most valuable advice I can give anyone is do it right the first time. Learn how to sing from your diaphragm, if you don't, you'll ruin your voise. Posture is key as well, poor posture leads to flat notes. Smile while singing, this creates a solid tone and improves your ability to sing on correct pitch. FYI, I was in choir with Kelly Clarkson, our new American Idol... we learned from the same teacher, but no I'm not nearly as good of a singer as she is. Ask away singing wise, hopefully I can shed some lights / hints that can set you apart from the rest out there.

P.S. enunciate your words, if you don't, don't sing heh...

[powderfinger]

digia,

could you define for me what singing from the diaphragm means?

i already like the smiling suggestion, i tried it and it think it works pretty well.......

[digia]

Ok, this is going to be rather difficult BUT if you follow these instructions, hopefully you'll see what I mean.

Place your hand on your stomach. Now take a deep breath. If you breathed from your diaphragm, you'll notice you took a much deeper breath and your stomach actually went in.

Now do the same exercise yet this time concentrate on breathing in and not out like many are used to. What I mean is, concentrate on your stomach moving inward.

I hope this helps!

Cheers

[smellyfuzz]

Ok, I'm going to now start some controversy.

yiordanaki :

Smellyfuzz - I beg to differ, and id have to say you're wrong. Alot can be said for singing techniques. Basically - if you dont know how to manipulate the instrument (which vocal chords are) how can improve??? those basics can definitely be taught in a book or a website. Of course to fine tune to a sound you like - you may be right - someone has to hear it. but basically i think with practice anyone can sing,

Why would you come to a web-site, post a question on a subject that you have little to no knowledge on and then to proceed to tell the people who do have the experience, that they are wrong ?

Where do you get this Devine knowledge ?

Why bother asking questions if you are already an expert ?

The thing of it is, I have 10 years of singing lessons behind me. The technique call Bel Canto.

Before I started lessons, I was self taught, what I had taught my self was improper singing.
I was on the road to voice burn out.

After many, many lessons;

I have developed a 3 ½ octave range
I can sing for 3 to 4 hours and not burn out.
I have an excellent sense of pitch.
I have not met one person who even compares to me in power, pitch or range.

If it seems that I am bragging, I'm not.
I just know the differences between lessons and self taught vocal lessons.

If you want to ask questions only to get the answers you want, well you are at the wrong web-site.

Rarely, on HR.com does anyone let anyone off the hook with bad information.

I've learned this first hand & have to been ass fucked for my wrong thoughts & opinions.

Since you are a noob, you would not know this.


Good luck,
Sean


PS.

digia;

I have a few problems with this post;

FYI, I was in choir with Kelly Clarkson, our new American Idol... we learned from the same teacher

1) Anyone can claim to have been in school choir with anyone.
Hard to prove, hard to disprove.

I could always say that, I once sang in a Coke commercial with Robert Plant.

I've been a singer all my life

I was a singer all my life before lessons & have met other people who sang all of their lives and yet some how their singing was not correct.

That does not mean it was not good but, just not correct technique.

the most valuable advice I can give anyone is do it right the first time.

From this statement, I feel you should not be giving any advice.

How can anyone sing the first time right, if they have no idea what right is.
That is the purpose of lessons, to learn the correct way of singing.
If the couch hears something wrong, he will correct you.
You can't get this from a book or web-site. PERIOD!

choir with Kelly Clarkson, our new American Idol... we learned from the same teacher

Am I to understand that you got your lessons from a high school music teacher ?

What are her credentials ?

How does taking some music class in high school or fuck, even College make you an expert on anything.

My wife went to law school for years and still knew little about how to be a lawyer.
She learned that from professionals in her field with years of experience, not from some course.

Just because I took Music Theory in High School, does not make me an expert on the theory of music.

poor posture leads to flat notes

I do not think so.

Smile while singing

Even if your singing a sad song ? Give me a break.

Ask away singing wise, enunciate your words, if you don't, don't sing heh...

I do not even know what this means.

hopefully I can shed some lights / hints that can set you apart from the rest out there.

Can you ?

I'm afraid of your self proclaimed expertise & fear someone may actually listen to you.
Noob.

[freaky]

In addition to everyting listed here, my coach gave me a great warm up to help with my lower register- creaking. What you do is kind of sing backwards. Proper vocal technique is crucial here, if you do this wrong, you could seriously damage your vocal chords. Open your mouth wide, relax your throat and inhale through your vocal chords, this should produce a low rumbling/ creaking sound. This and the gargling technique mentioned earlier are my favorite warm up exercises.

[Chris Tondreau]

Originally posted by smellyfuzz
Ok, I'm going to now start some controversy.

The thing of it is, I have 10 years of singing lessons behind me. The technique call Bel Canto.

>...in response to comment about smiling while singing.... <

Even if your singing a sad song ? Give me a break.

Smellyfuzz.... every time I read that someone knows/uses Bel Canto, I get a little excited, because I often feel like I'm the only person that studies it. I've been working on it for four years with a well-respected performer, formerly a tenor with the Met Opera. I agree with everything you have written, except one thing. You don't seem to agree with the concept of smiling while singing. While this may reflect my four years of study as compared to your ten, it has been drilled into me that singing with a smile is one of the cornerstones of Bel Canto - smiling facilitates lifting the uvula, thus opening the throat. (the other cornerstone being the inhalation of the voice....)

I also realize that there are many approaches to Bel Canto. I was just wondering if you could shed some light on where our opinions of smiling while singing may differ...

Chris

[smellyfuzz]

CHRIS BABY,

I feel smiling is fine, if the song calls for it.

If singing in an opera, there is some acting involved, a nasty character might be in the act.
Do you want a sad or mean character in an opera with a big shit eating grin on his face ?

If one is sings a song about a lost love, should he paste on that big smile ?

LOSING EMOTION ?

AND YES, it probably does help open the mouth(very important).

However, I was taught not to dwell to much on technicalities like diaphragm, breathing, smiling even though all very important, I was taught in a way that I use these aspects naturally.

I was taught a way that I started doing those fundamental techniques forced from exercises.

After many lessons, I did use my diaphragm, breathing, posture, placement in the head & so on.

Sean

[Chris Tondreau]

Okay.... I can see your point. This is just me kinda brainstorming, but what about this as a response... You never sing with a "shit-eating grin" anyway - more of a relaxed pleasant smile, like you've just recognized a friend in the crowd. Start from this expression, close the eyes a little and maybe add a bit of a "stitch" to the brow = sadness. Or, start from same expression, and stitch the brow quite a lot = angry. Just a thought....

It sounds like your teacher and mine have quite a different approach to teaching the technique. You mention that, "However, I was taught not to dwell to much on technicalities like diaphragm, breathing, smiling..." Through excersises, etc., these things just sort of became natural. My teacher totally dwells on these things, with the approach of "it will become natural or automatic through large quantities of repetition." The exercises that I do focus on these aspects of the technique in order to make them automatic.

What about the "inhalation of the voice?"

Chris

[smellyfuzz]

CHRIS,

I'm sure the way you were instructed has brought you to a very advanced state of singing technique.

I would not debate you at all on the way you were taught.

It is obvious that you know what you are doing.

If you feel it is important for YOU to smile, then it must be true.

I was taught just to open my mouth wide while singing, the same result.

My angry post was not to dispel types of technique but, rather to dispel members with far less training and knowledge from preaching & receiving voodoo.

This one guy, "yiordanaki" seems to feel that he can become a great singer from reading some posts on the Internet, WRONG !

AND when I told him that, he dismissed me, which usually I do not care but this time it pissed me off.

The other idiot,"dinga" must of had a few lessons in high school, and is passing himself off as some kind of expert.

When I read his post, I found a lot of his advice was filled with facts & fiction.

He had a few thing right but, quotes like "poor posture leads to flat notes" sounds and is ridiculous.

I could sing in tune in fetal position before I took my first lesson.

What about the "inhalation of the voice?"

I'm not privy to this statement, please elaborate.

Sean

[yiordanaki]

Oh my goodness.............

The world is certainly in a sorrowful state. SmellyFuzz, Don't you have anything better to do with your time than put people like me down and put yourself up on a pedestal?

I was merely asking for some hints - and thankyou to the people that gave me these. Very much appreciated.

I HAVE PUT SOME OF THESE SUGGESTIONS TO USE AND HAVE IMPROVED......... ( i guess smelly fuzz was wrong)

and why are you paying out on digia? Do you find it hard to believe that there actually might be someone out there who is .... wait for it........ this really is unbelievable.....a better singer than you!!!!!!

I in no way claim to be that someone - if talent was measured in self-image - you would be the king of every genre known to man.

Anyway back to the music - -(more important than peoples egos)

Chris - you briefly mentioned "exercises etc. "..... could you give me some examples - im eager to try anything.

Freaky - thanks for the suggestion mate - am trying......

RSM - excellent suggestion - and it can be used live as well - I'll pretend i have no mic. and yell at the person in the last row............ hehe -thanks mate.

yiordanaki

[smellyfuzz]

yiordanaki;

SmellyFuzz, Don't you have anything better to do with your time than put people like me down and put yourself up on a pedestal?

Wrong !

Sorry, you come hear for advice on a topic that you know nothing about & you pick and choose who to listened to. Unfortunately for you, your choice of mentors know about as much as you on this topic.

I'm not saying that I'm a better singer then anybody here, nor is it my objective to knock your newbee ass down. You posted a GREAT question & followed it with typical YOUNG ignorance.

I was merely asking for some hints

I gave you some hints, you refuse to accept them.

My point being, if you were to come here and ask for some hints on driving a car, & some fool said you should try to drive like this, wouldn't that be stupid ?

You can't teach someone how to drive from READING !!!!!!!!

The same go for correct singing technique!

I HAVE PUT SOME OF THESE SUGGESTIONS TO USE AND HAVE IMPROVED......... ( i guess smelly fuzz was wrong)

HOW WOULD YOU KNOW ?

I sang forever before lessons, I had no idea of what I was doing wrong.

There are a hundred things that you could do incorrectly, the only way to be sure is from proper lessons.

and why are you paying out on digia? Do you find it hard to believe that there actually might be someone out there who is .... wait for it........ this really is unbelievable.....a better singer than you!!!!!!

He may very well be a better singer then me. You missed the point completely though.
He was giving out BAD/WRONG Voodoo information, which you gobbled up as FACT!
Take his advice, you do not seem to be interested in the truth what so ever.
You are more interest in a QUICK FIX singing technique.
No such thing !!!!!!

I in no way claim to be that someone - if talent was measured in self-image - you would be the king of every genre known to man.

On HR.COM believe it or not their are people here that are actually experts.

YES EXPERTS !

Sjoko2 = Mixing, recording & mastering.
Bluebear Sound= Recording, studio ownership.
John Sayers = Recording Studio Construction
Harvey Gerst = Microphones
Smellyfuzz = Proper Singing Technique

The people above spent years on their craft, and have many times pointed out to new members thier incorrectness.(me included when I was new)
If you look hard enough, you will find someone more talented & knowledgeable.
There is always someone better, but for you to just dismiss me as egotistical because I WAS TRYING TO HELP YOUR SORRY ASS, just shows how young and stupid you really are.

Singing is all I really know, But I know it pretty good.
That is not an egotistical statement. If this were a guitar forum & I posted you'd be better off getting guitar lessons, you would have not been so eager to knock my advice & label me as egotistical.

Like staying in physical shape, or owning a business, EVERYONE is a self appointed expert.
Well this self appointed expert has 30 years of singing experience with 10 years of lessons behind him. I did not learn anything over night, but have learned a few things about singing.

GOOD LUCK,
Sean

[Chris Tondreau]

I gotta side with Sean "smellyfuzz" on this one. There is no such thing as a quick fix for vocal technique, and there is no substitute for a proper teacher. You can't learn to sing, drive a car, or perform karate, or swim from a book. These things are all very physical, and not very "information" oriented. You can buy a book, and get the information required to play guitar (to some degree...) and pull it off. You'll be able to do stuff. Physical technique is a whole other ball game.

As far as the exercises that I referred to, they are merely vehicles with which to practice the mechanics of the technique. I could write them down (me-ha-a-a; hay-ay-ay; ho-o-o) but they would mean absolutely nothing outside of the context of learning the actual technique with a proper instructor.

Sean...inhaling the voice involves visualizing a "pulling in of the breath" from in front of your face onto your hard palate. A hard palate will reflect a louder, more powerful sound than the soft palate, as a hard surface will always reflect a louder sound and a soft surface will always absorb sound. The air enters the head and goes up into the sinus cavities as it passes over (but not through) the vocal cords. The air passing over the vocal cords pulls air up from the lungs, and the air from the lungs passes through the vocal cords and also winds up in the sinus cavity. Visualize this.... two rivers flowing finally meet at a given point. The result will be a whirlpool where the two streams meet. The same happens with the voice. The stream of air coming off of the hard palate meets up with the stream of air coming up from the lungs, creating a whirlpool of air. This whirlpool of air occurs in the sinus cavities, creating resonance.

The air finally escapes through the nose. However, since the sound has already been created, and the resonance has already taken place in the sinus cavities, there is no nasal quality in the resulting tone.

Cool, eh?

Chris

[yiordanaki]

Fact - There is no such thing as a quick fix for singing, I totally agree, thats why i practice for hours and hours til it sounds decent.

Fact - As far as im concerned, you could be the most knowledgable, talented and learned vocalist on the planet and I still would rather get advice from someone with common courtesy.

This website is about helping other people with what you know and not paying out on others because of what they dont know.


Anyway thanks for your replys.........yiordanaki

By the way, i gave your song "expiration date" a listen. I assume thats you singing - not bad but what is going on at 2.32.......
The guitar was good at the end.

[Chris Tondreau]

yiordanaki - I smell your frustration. Reading back on your posts, I agree that you don't seem to be looking for a "quick fix." You alluded to your years of working at it. I used the phrase "quick fix" as it was used in the post(s) previous.

One thing that you will find in your pursuit of knowledge of singing technique is that there seems to be two schools of thought. One says that "as long as it works for you, it is a good technique." This is MOST typical of self-taught singers who happened to get good at it through little more than practice and determination. The other school of thought, particularly common among those who have studied the Bel Canto technique specifically, is that there is ONLY ONE proper way to sing - using the Bel Canto technique, for instance. Everything else is just doing it "improperly."

The grounds for differentiating proper from improper is that virtually any other technique leaves you prone to fatiguing your voice over shorter periods of time, and developing nodes over the long haul. Sure, Rod Stewart's "technique" has worked extraordinarily well for him - except that he has needed surgery on his vocal cords more than once. With Bel Canto (if used properly), there is NO stress on the vocal cords, and therefore, the development of nodes is next to impossible.

This thread seems to be a good instance of the two schools of thought going head to head with each other. There is never a winner in a philosophical battle.

Chris