My First Attempt - Comments welcome

[alibish]

Hi all

I've learned a huge amount just reading the various forums on HomeRecording.

Now I've finally got round to recording something, and I'd be really grateful for any comments on how I could improve it.

I'd welcome comments on everything - songwriting, playing, arrangement, choice of sounds, mixing/production/"mastering", how to make the drums sound better, how to hide my sub-par singing, etc.

Thanks in advance.

Alastair

Not the Only One:
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists/...d=1715&alid=-1

[Kramer]

Excellent dude.Dont be to hard on your vocals.I think they stand up pretty well.I like the background vocal work...it sounds really cool.The song has a nice groove and hook to it.The mix sounds pretty good for the most part.The vocals are placed about right and cut through without any problem.

The only problem that jumps out at me right off the bat is the intro guitar and every time it comes back in with that intro riff...it's a little harsh and overbearing...it's cutting my ears in a bad way..It sounds like it needs some highs and high mids cut and maybe cut the volume of that guitar just a hair(only if it needs it after the high eq cut).I like the actual riff of that guitar but the tone is harsh and overbearing.

Thats about all I can hear on my fried ears.You did a good job.I enjoyed it!

[alibish]

Thanks so much for your comments.

When you say "intro guitar" do you mean the stuff right at the beginning (which doesn't repeat) or the riff that does repeat?

I deliberately left the first bit as is because there was nothing else going on in the mix. But do you reckon it's still too much?

I agree totally about the repeating riff, though. The first couple of times I listened back to it I thought it was too harsh, but I think I must have got used to it. Oops.

I'll chop off some of the highs/hi-mids and maybe turn it down a wee bit too.

Thanks again for being so positive. You've made my day!

Cheers

Alastair

[Kramer]

Originally posted by alibish
Thanks so much for your comments.

When you say "intro guitar" do you mean the stuff right at the beginning (which doesn't repeat) or the riff that does repeat?

The distorted guitar that opens the song up is the one Im talking about.It sounds like it's the same guitar doing that repeating riff.It just has a harsh piercing sound that has an adverse effect on the ears.I realize the intro guitar and repeating riff need to have an edge and some bite to make the part work but it's just a little harsh to me at this point.

[alibish]

Thanks - I'll tone down all the stuff that uses that guitar sound.

I'm considering putting a wee bit of reverb on the snare - it feels a bit "exposed" during the sparser parts of the mix. What do you think?

Cheers

Alastair

[Matt303]

I've got the same opinion on that guitar sound. Its very harsh all the way through. This is made more stark by the contrast with the acoustic. I think the contrast and bite work as an idea but its too much at the moment

Damn good song though!

I like the vocals, I think they work well with the tune and the harmonies are excellent, the playing is also good. The snare is a bit tame and sounds distant although the level is OK.
This is an exceptional start, the strongest element, which is the most important is the material. I'd like to hear this tune again with a few tweaks to the mix.

[alibish]

Matt303 - thanks so much for taking the time to listen, and for your comments. I was really nervous about every single aspect of my stuff, so it means a lot to me that folk like it.

I'm particularly aware of my limited singing abilities, so it's just amazing to me that anyone would think it was OK. Cheers.

Don't worry - the guitar sound is definitely going to be softened a bit.

I'll try and get the snare sounding a bit more upfront. I might need to use a different sound.

I'm going to give it a couple of days to get some more suggestions and ideas, then I'll do a better mix and post a link.

Thanks again for your help.

Alastair

[erichenryus]

welcome aboard. your singing is better than you think. it's pretty good actually. i like your harmonies and background vocals. i think you could push the level of the lead vocal maybe just a teenie bit. it's sitting in the mix well imo, maybe just needs a little bump in volume.

the bagpipe like guitar intro is a little long imo. i would actually like to hear it on real bagpipes if you got any . i think that would sound cool

the strummed acoustic sounds pretty good (starts at 1:00). You might try loosing the electric guitar intro and go with the simple strummed acoustic for a couple bars and jump right in at the current 1:00 mark.

how are you doing the drums? midi? loops? real drums? just curious.

[alibish]

erichenryus - thanks for taking the time to listen and comment.

Cheers for the confidence boost re my singing. I backed off the volume on the lead vocal, because it was definitely too loud before. Maybe I've overdone it slightly. I'll try bumping it up a wee touch.

Aaaw, I really liked my guitar intro! Do I really have to cut it short?

It wasn't intended to sound like bagpipes, but I can hear what you mean. Unfortunately I don't have any pipes, and I couldn't play them even if I did.

Also, it's all too easy to slip into "Mull of Kintyre" territory. And that can't end well...

I'm glad you like the acoustic - it's an absolutely stunning guitar, but it's just miked through a Superlux CM-H8A condenser mike. As are the vocals.

The drums are MIDI, using one of the Sonic Implants Blue Jay soundfonts via Livesynth Pro. The sounds themselves are pretty good, but I've got a huge way to go in learning to program them properly

I'll think about cutting the intro. But I *like* noisy guitars.

Cheers

Alastair

[Dorker]

Good sound! I can feel some pixies influence. I like the guitar sound at the beginning. It reminds me of the guitar solo tone in queens' "We will rock you". It is maybe a little too loud though.

[erichenryus]

hope you didn't take the bagpipe comment as a slam. i just heard bagpipes when i heard that guitar. don't know why.

would you be open to posting a version of this with no drum track? i just got a new kit and i'm looking for an opp to try it out on a recording.

[alibish]

Dorker - The Pixies are one of my absolute favourite bands of all time. I can't tell you how chuffed I was with that!

(I also like Queen, but I don't admit it in public )

erichenryus - no problem with the bagpipe comment. I'm just really pleased that folk are taking the time to comment at all.

I actually *like* (some) pipe music, but I have an allergy to bagpipes in pop music. It's a bit "tartan and shortbread" for my tastes.

I'll do a drum-less version when I remix the track. The tempo is 133 bpm, and there's a two bar (=measure) silence before the intro guitar starts. I'd love to hear what a real drummer could do with this...

[Kramer]

I wouldnt lose the intro guitar,just work with the tone a little to lessen the harshness.Did you record it direct?That might be the reason for the offending tone.

A mic thrown in front of an amp speaker would give you a softer tone and still have the bite.Just dont throw the mic right on the speaker grill or you'll be getting a direct sound again.

I think the intro guitar works myself,although for radio it would probably have to be shortened.It's a killer riff for a live show though!

[alibish]

Kramer - I'm also quite fond of the intro, so I'm probably going to adjust it (along the lines you suggested) rather than get rid of it completely.

It's a Strat through a Pod, so the problem with the sound is mainly the way I've set up the Pod. It was meant to sound the way it does, it's just that (from most of the comments) my choice of sound is a bit too harsh. I'll tame it a little.

It's been a few years since I've gigged, but I wouldn't mind bashing this one out in front of an audience.

Here's a quick gear list in case anyone is interested:

Sonar 2 XL
Behringer Eurorack MX1604A (mixer)
Superlux CM-H8A (condenser mic)
Line 6 Pod 2 (amp simulator)
Fender American Standard Strat
Jimmy Moon custom hand-built acoustic guitar
Yahama RBX something-or-other (bass guitar) - direct into the mixer. I really must get a Bass Pod some day.

I monitor everything through Sennheiser HD200 headphones, because I've got neighbours and no decent monitor speakers

Cheers

Alastair

[TripleM]

Ditto on the the lead guitar. I think you'd be better off retracking it myself. You'll get a better sound in the end. I know this from painful experience.

Aside from that, I really liked the song. The lead riff both in the intro and afterwards was a nice catchy hook.

I thought the song was well written - especially the music. But the words were good too. I think you have a decent singing voice. I really liked the harmonies on this too.

Good job.

[StevenLindsey]

Listening now. I like this song! Have to agree about the harsh guitar. The acoustic is beautiful. Also agree that the lead vocal need to come up a bit - would like to hear the words a bit more clearly. The voice is quite good - wouldn't be embarrassed about that at all. You oughta hear mine. Song has a nice feel to it. ok 4th time through.... still like it. Man! sweet acoustic..... would like to hear more of it....

[alibish]

TripleM - thank you very much for your kind comments. I'll try and EQ the guitar first, but you may well be right that I'll end up re-recording it.

Steven - glad you like the acoustic. I didn't use it much on this track, but I just had to include it. I only got the guitar very recently, and it's just so beautiful to play. By far the best guitar I've ever touched, never mind played!

Some of my other stuff is more acoustic-based - I'll get a few more recorded over the next wee while, and post links here.

-

With what people have said so far, I intend to do the following:

Tone down the harshness of the lead guitar sound.
Turn up the main vocal a touch.
Try and bring the snare "forward" a bit.
Do a "drum-less" mix, so that erichenryus, and anyone else who would like, can try putting some real drums on it rather than MIDI ones.

I'd be very grateful for any other ideas folk have for improvements.

Thanks again to everyone who's contributed so far.

Alastair

[chrisharris]

Man, if I knew how to give out stars for songs, this one would get about 12 from me. I hope comparisons don't bug ya', 'cause this really reminds me of the Kinks...only with a lead tone that could peel the lead paint off of a battle cruiser.

I love this song. I don't think it's an EQ thing with the lead...I think it's a volume thing. Keep the brittle, biting, caustic, abrasive...fur flying in your face lead tone...just tone it down about 3 db...(the reason I think it's a volume thing is because the song seems to drop out A LOT when the riff does).

12 Stars from Nobody
-chris

[wes480]

alibish - looking at your gear list is really depressing me..heh

I've tried to get this same kind of sound out of similar stuff...I can never seem to get a good lead electric guitar sound when recording my Line 6 (flextone 2 XL)...

mind going into a little more detail on how you recorded the drums/bass/guitars....what kind of mics you were using...how you miked stuff...and what kind of mixing work you did?

I think your drums sound absolutely great...very crisp. love this recording...

I too immediately thought of the pixies when I heard it...it's great. very catchy...i love the "harsh" electric guitar though personally. for me that makes the songs...

i like the vocals, great work.

[wes480]

oh...i didn't even realize the were synth drums...

i always give people the benefit of the doubt...thats why i was wondering how the hell you got your kick so perfect...

and your open/close hi hat so crisp...heh. not taking away anything from your song...but, i'm not throwing out my gear now at least

[chrisharris]

I'm pretty sure that I'm about to commit not one, but TWO "no-nos."

First, Alibash. I wasn't kidding about how I feel about this song. I love it. But I just couldn't help myself...I kinda' stole it and tweaked it a bit. Not mine to tinker with, I know, but again, I just couldn't help myself.

No-No#2 - It's posted here:

www.nowhereradio.com/honestmango/singles

I'm not trying to steal your thread, I just thought some comments from others would be insightful. As soon as you download the mp3, let me know and I'll delete it...(I need the space for my hillbilly music).

-chris

[participant]

Way cool rhythm... loose, jumpy, free... Yeah, the Pixies -- Sonic Youth (in the intro riff!) -- and an airy, spacey 60's feel like Mama's & the Papas (without the harmonies!)

Before even READING the other replies -- knew that guitar had a harsh tone... maybe it's not the actual tone, but some piercing high harmonics that kill the ears! Awright, enough about the lead tone. I'll check this out on monitors later. For now, you get stars!


Chad

[alibish]

Man, this is all too much. I'm getting emotional now.

Chris - "a lead tone that could peel the lead paint off of a battle cruiser" - nice one I'll experiment with EQ and level, and try and find something a bit less painful, but which still has enough "bite".

And I'm so grateful for your comments - it means a lot to me that you like the thing. Don't worry about making changes to the track - I'm just amazed that anyone would go to the trouble!

The Kinks - I wish I had a tenth the talent of Ray Davies.

I like the fade-in you've done at the start, although I also like the sudden start in my version. I'll have a think about whether I can do something different at the beginning.

You've certainly tamed the lead a wee bit - presumably mainly with EQ? Can I ask what exactly you did? What frequencies did you tone down, and by how much? Thanks again for making the effort.

wes480 - thanks very much for your comments. I can post the patch settings for the lead and "jangly" guitar parts if you like - I think the Flextone and the Pod are pretty similar internally. But if you want to use the sounds, remember to turn down the harshness!

One of the reasons I really like the lead patch I'm using is that the combination of distortion and chorus means you get some really nice "extra" harmonics/notes appearing when you play certain combinations of strings/notes. The song is in B, and there's a nice G# appears from nowhere during the intro riff. I didn't play it - it just happens with the combination of the C# (on the top E string) and the open B string.

The electric guitars are all recorded in mono with the Left output of the Pod straight into a line-in on my mixer. With the exception of the main riff and the distorted chords in the chorus, all the other parts are doubled and hard-panned left and right. I recorded about 5 or 6 takes of each and used the best 2.

There 's a bit of "taming" EQ on the distorted guitars (mainly rolling off the low end) and the next mix will also have some of the highs/hi-mids toned down a bit too

The acoustic is again double-tracked and hard-panned. It's just recorded via the condenser mic into the mixer, and again a lot of low-end has been rolled off. I removed the pop-shield and pointed the mic roughly half-way between the soundhole and the point where the neck joins the body. The guitar was about 6-8 inches away from the mic. I think I put a bit of compression on the acoustic, too.

The bass, I'm ashamed to say, is plugged straight into a mic channel on the mixer. No DI, no pre-amp, no nothing. Because it's such a low-level signal, the gain on the mixer is way up, so there's far too much hiss on the bass track. But a bit of EQ helped with that. I've also rolled off the very low frequencies on the bass, and compressed it to within an inch of its life.

I'm thinking about getting a Bass Pod, but it's a lot of money for a non-bass player!

The drums are Sonic Implants Blue Jay 1 soundfont, played via Livesynth Pro. I wouldn't know where to start with micing real drums

If you haven't tried them, you should give the Sonic Implants stuff a listen. They're pretty cheap (I think about $20 for a 4-kick and 4-snare kit) and the sound quality is *way* better than anything I could ever hope to produce myself. Mind you, I'm looking forward to hearing what erichenryus comes up with...

Chad - Sonic Youth! No way! Another of my favourites. I think the Youth would mangle this one a lot more before letting it free though...

Mamas & Papas - I wish! I can hear all these really cool harmonies in my head, but strangely the noises that come out of my mouth don't sound *quite* the same

I'd be really interested to hear what the mix is like on decent monitors. I rolled off the very low end, but because I'm monitoring on headphones I can't really tell if I've done it properly.

Gold stars - I'm going to cut them out and put them on my wall

Thanks to everyone for responding - I can't tell you how much it means to me.

Cheers

Alastair

[yiordanaki]

Hey man, very nice. I reckon that song would go off live!!!!

You can just imagine the crowd chanting and cheering as you play out that intro!!!!!!!!!

I like the vocals too - nice and relaxed - which contrasts with the upbeat music.

Im pretty sure you said you use a Pod right? if you did, how do you find that unit? I'm considering getting one and i need some "consumer feedback" hehe.

I like the sudden start at the intro as well, I wouldnt take that out.
The sound of your voice is something that is coming back in right now i reckon, that nice easy 70's feeling. I'm sorry if people disagree with me but im sick of the "Nickelback, Staind, Puddle of mudd" sound - and I think the sound you are creating, we are going to see more of. Well done!

Once again - I Like it .....yiordanaki

[wes480]

i agree...your voice is coming back....and the acoustic guitar...mm, i just cant get enough of it.

i am stuck on this just like i was stuck on heylows kinda 70s thing. had that same open floating sound...

if you would please post those pod patches...i really like the sound.

as far as live..yes...this is *the* live song. a great album opener...as well...sets a great tone for a masterpiece pop album. Like, something on the level of Rumours....if you could crank out a lot more of this quality

the riff is so sad..peaceful...and uplifting at the same time...I love it. it's like....a riff that gives you hope...in something.