A Vote for Double Tracking

[dachay2tnr]

I have on several occasions in these forums seen a recommendation to double-track vocals and/or acoustic guitars and then do a left-right pan of the two tracks.

I have tried this approach in the past using a copy and paste technique, and the results were pretty much blah. However, people on this forum (and George Martin in All You Need Is Ears) say you actually have to bite the bullet and record the track twice. You can't just duplicate the track, as it doesn't have the same effect.

Well, I can't speak yet for vocals, but I tried this technique this past weekend with an acoustic 12 string, and my guitar has never sounded bigger or better. I am completely sold. I played the track once through and panned it 100% left, then played the entire track again and panned it 100% right. I put a touch of reverb on both tracks, in slightly differing amounts, and I just couldn't believe the richness and fullness compared to my previous recordings.

Apparently the issue has to do with the slight variations in the way the two tracks are played versus being exact copies of each other; but the results were quite amazing. I'm just sorry I didn't take this advice earlier.

Next up - vocals!!

[Seanmorse79]

I was pretty skeptical at first too. One thing I've read (but haven't really tried yet) is to make sure to change the tone on each track - not completely different, but just different enough to bring even more depth in. Maybe different pickups, different guitar, different cab, different room, etc..

I haven't had as much luck with vocals though... part of it is my personal preference (I'm not crazy about the Limp Bizkit double vocal sound, although it does sound big), but I'm sure part of it is also my lack of singing talent

[Fab4ever]

Yeah, double-tracking can be cool on vocals. Aside from the Beatles, listen to "Soak up the Sun" on Sheryl Crow's new album.

Fab

[Alchemist3k]

Yeah, it works a charm. Copying and pasting is a waste of time because the effect is almost identical to having one track panned to the centre because both signals driving the left and right speaker and identical. It's the tiniest nuances in difference between the two takes that create true stereo.

[TexRoadkill]

For another cool effect on acoustic guitar try doing 2 different stereo tracks(4 tracks total) and then reverse the image of one of the stereo pairs so you have a more balanced frequency response.

[webstop]

What if I cut and paste a track, then move it a little bit to take it out of phase, say by 5ms, and then apply slightly different effects?
Will this work?

[Sennheiser]

Computer doubling of a part is a waste of time. It is virtually identical to the original.

Playing the part twice WILL open your eyes though when you hear it.

Tex, I'm gonna try that technique on my next recording that you used. It sounds interesting.

[Sennheiser]

It will sound like chorused guitar.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by webstop
What if I cut and paste a track, then move it a little bit to take it out of phase, say by 5ms, and then apply slightly different effects?
Will this work?

Stop being lazy It might 'work' but it is nowhere near as interesting sounding as true double tracking.

Sennheiser- When you gonna put some stuff on .mp3 so we can hear your tunes? If you need some help let me know.

[Robert D]

Hi - I double track lead vocals all the time, but the approach is different from guitar. With guitar, panning hard left and right, equal in level, gives it a sort of super stereo image that's fat and exciting. On vocals though this will usually sound wrong. Try instead putting the lead vox track up at the level you want it at, and just slightly off center. Then bring the dubVox track in at a much lower level, almost undetectable, and panned just slightly opposite the lead vox. If there's any words that go out of time with the lead vox, fix it with your editor. The goal is to just fatten the vocal, without it being apparent that it's dubbled. Then in certain places, maybe a phrase, maybe just a single word, you might like to bring it up where it is apparent, but then duck it back under cover. When it's right you almost don't think it's working, till you mute the DubVox track, and suddenly the vocal sounds thin. At least, that's what works for me.
Regards, RD

[Seanmorse79]

That sounds like a good idea, Robert D. Maybe that's been my problem all along - both were up front and almost hard panned. This thread has me all pumped up to try it again

[VOXVENDOR]

Ozzy does a pretty cool vocal double.

[VOXVENDOR]

Originally posted by webstop
What if I cut and paste a track, then move it a little bit to take it out of phase, say by 5ms, and then apply slightly different effects?
Will this work?

So your basically going to end up with a delay effect... Totally different than what is being discussed here..

It is essential to have 2 seperate performances, which is what gives the vocal that extra beef... Give it a try both ways, and you'll immediately see why people do it with 2 seperate performances..

[VOXVENDOR]

So, heres a question for all the doublers out there.....

Do you listen to the original performance while doubling, or do you mute the first vocal when your tracking the second...


I usually have the first on really quiet, but I can still hear it enough to know when to stop etc...

Joe

[Seanmorse79]

The times I tried it, I muted the first track completely - but then maybe that's another reason it hasn't worked out so well for me.

[Claudius Rex]

When I was 15, I was playing with my 4-track and figured this technique out by accident. These days, I always double track my rhythm guitar and double-track certain parts of the vocals for emphasis (choruses or keywords, for example). What I've found to make a cool guitar sound is double-tracking the guitars (electric, that is), panning 100% left and right, then making a copy of that track, applying a few ms of delay, lowering the volume and panning it somewhere to the other side (I played around with both the opposite side and slightly towards center of the opposite side.. play around!). This gave me a HUGE guitar sound, I was actually surprised. Now when I listen to a mainstream rock CD I can hear that they seem to do this as well.

When I double-track the guitar, I usually do the left one first, then pan the monitor of the guitar microphone right and play it at normal volume through the phones. For vox, I just keep everything center as I'm recording. Generally, my 2nd or 3rd take is much better than my first, so I usually keep the 1st very low in the mix just to give it an extra "kick" or so.
I've also heard of people Auto-tuning their 1st track to help them with the pitch for the following tracks. I haven't tried this one myself (no Autotune) but I'm assuming its a good technique.

[Sennheiser]

Tex, you've got PM.

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by VOXVENDOR
So, heres a question for all the doublers out there.....

Do you listen to the original performance while doubling, or do you mute the first vocal when your tracking the second...


I usually have the first on really quiet, but I can still hear it enough to know when to stop etc...

Joe

I tried doing it while listening to the orignal and I kept singing late because I was waiting for the part to start. I found if I do about 4 solo takes I will usually end up with enough parts that match well enough.

I like compressing the hell out of a quiter doubled part. Works well on drums and bass also. You get more meat without losing the air of the original track.

[Sennheiser]

I have to listen.

[VOXVENDOR]

Originally posted by TexRoadkill

I like compressing the hell out of a quiter doubled part. Works well on drums and bass also. You get more meat without losing the air of the original track.

Yeah, I find that too... It's especially good to help keep the quieter parts of the quiet vocal from "disappearing"..

[dachay2tnr]

Thanks for the advice on the vocals everyone. I can see where hard panning the double tracks would not work with vocals. I also like the idea of lowering the vol. on one of the tracks to make it less obvious but still get the beef. Based on my life-altering experience with doubling the guitar, this has me excited to see what happens with vocals.

PS - To those who still seem to want to copy and paste tracks, please take my advice and just one time try playing/singing the track twice. As Alchemist said, it's the nuanced differences between the two tracks that makes this work.

[geekgurl]

Originally posted by Robert D
Hi - I double track lead vocals all the time, but the approach is different from guitar. ... On vocals though this will usually sound wrong. Try instead putting the lead vox track up at the level you want it at, and just slightly off center. Then bring the dubVox track in at a much lower level, almost undetectable, and panned just slightly opposite the lead vox.
Regards, RD

Since I go for a "natural" vocal sound I don't do too many gimmichks, but I do use this technique to emphasize certain phrases often, and it works really well.

Also, for backgrounds, I sing each line twice and pan them to create a nice, full bed for the lead to do its thing over it. Example: Lo-note harmony vocal, panned at 9 and 3 o'clock; Hi-note harmony vocal, panned at 10 and 2 o'clock ... or somethin', depending on the song. It's pretty common to do this.

Oh, and I DO listen to previous tracks I'm trying to match up with ... I can get it very close to exact, and performance variances still give it that human touch of doing two takes rather than just copy, pasting, and nudging one to make it sound like two.

[King Elvis]

I love to double track to get a fuller sound. You MUST record what you are double tracking twice. Meaning play it and record it to one track and then play it a second time and record it to a different track, you cant just duplicate the same track. The subtle differences are the key to the full sound. I also like to record a track and then do it a second time playing the same chords at a different location on the guitar neck, you know in a higher key. This always works out great.

[riffing]

Originally posted by Robert D
Hi - I double track lead vocals all the time, but the approach is different from guitar. With guitar, panning hard left and right, equal in level, gives it a sort of super stereo image that's fat and exciting. On vocals though this will usually sound wrong. Try instead putting the lead vox track up at the level you want it at, and just slightly off center. Then bring the dubVox track in at a much lower level, almost undetectable, and panned just slightly opposite the lead vox...
Regards, RD

I've never double-tracked anything before so I tried it last night with vocals. I didn't know what to do so I tried panning both tracks equally off-center with equal levels. It definitely sounded unnatural and I didn't like it. I ended up putting the first track center full level and the double a little to one side and at a very low level and it sounded good. It's good to know this is pretty much how it's done. Cool! Can't wait to try it on guitar!

[darrin_h2000]

using a room mic some 5 ft away along with your main mic does wonders for amps, accoustic instuments. but be sure that the instrument you do it on is the main one because you dont want to use it with all the instruments.