Everyone's input needed: NOT the last time I will ask about vocals.

[ScienceOne]

Ok, just for everyone else's input: Marshall 2001p condenser, art tube mp mic preamp, behringer mixer, a SLEW of plug-ins for Cubase including multiple compressors, reverbs, BBE, etc. What do I do for a good rock/sightly punk vocal track with "pretty singing" and some semi-screaming? Let's get some ideas bouncing.

[ambi]

i don't have a lot of experience, but.. Record the signal as hot as possible, with maybe a limiter or compression to keep the screaming from clipping? then clean it up with eqing and a bit of compression, and maybe a little distortion if thats what your going for? Try converting it to 8 bit. i like to do that for drums, i dunno what that will do for vocals.

[Buck62]

Toss the Behringer mixer from the chain.... yechh!
Actually, a better mic and preamp would do you a world of good.

The best thing you could do right now is get a better preamp... one that has compression and EQ.
Forget about all the plug-ins and effects until you've established a great sound without all the add-ons.

Secondly, use better cables... like Mogami, Belden, Canare, Monster, or Blue.

[TexRoadkill]

Your whole signal chain was making me cringe but to be completely honest loud punk vocals aren't exactly difficult. Just set the level and go.

There really is no secret to getting a good vocal sound other than having a singer who can pull it off and a room and signal path that doesn't fight against you.

Is there a particular problem your having?

[volltreffer]

High!

I do some punk rock (also with some 'pretty' parts) and also use an art mp. I have to admit I like the way it colours my voice... But I use it with a compressor,limiter, and gate... So the noise it makes will not be too prominent... Do you record 24bit? If not I'd at least try to rent me a compressor/limiter for recording. Gate might be nice, too if in the same machine... If you do record 24 bit, make sure you have a little headroom (I'd say peaks to -12dB to -6dB) for the screaming - I often had too much trust in meters on my 'puter or my vs880 and had distortions...

But keep in mind: I'm doing this as a hobby, and don't have the ambitions, the ears, or the time of reaching any standards like e.g. Blue Bear or Tex... I'm just a simple stupid engineer (and NOT an audio one )

Ciao

Axel

[scottr]

What is the big difference between using a hardware compressor or gate and using the compressor/gate built into my software? Seems like the software has been working pretty good for me, plus I would think less noise would be introduced onto the track.

Scott

[TexRoadkill]

Originally posted by scottr
What is the big difference between using a hardware compressor or gate and using the compressor/gate built into my software? Seems like the software has been working pretty good for me, plus I would think less noise would be introduced onto the track.

Scott

The main difference is that you are only compressing during the mixdown (which is the best way to do it).

If somebody needs to maximize the signal before it hits the digital convertors than a hardware compressor is needed.

[keilson]

I believe using the compressor before will prevent any clipping in advance. If you get clipping in your recording then I believe a compressor after will just change the volume of the clip. Hence, you will still have that clipping.

[Neil Ogilvie]

Science 1, what sort of sound are you going for? ie, Blink 182 punk rock sound etc? Might be useful to know 'coz Jerry Finn uses loads of things you wouldn't expect on the vocal parts he records.

[keilson]

what does he use?

[Sennheiser]

Watch out for pumping if your are attempting to compress the whole mix.

I recorded a song back in '85 before I had a compressor and the bass was very inconsitant. I took that mix and ran it into ProTools Free the other day and tried to tame the bass with some compression and the whole mix was pumping really bad.

I couldn't hear it until it was uploaded. Now I have to do it again.

Your milage may vary.

[riffing]

Originally posted by keilson
I believe using the compressor before will prevent any clipping in advance. If you get clipping in your recording then I believe a compressor after will just change the volume of the clip. Hence, you will still have that clipping.

Using compression before the recording device in the chain can help prevent clipping but it's not a guarantee. I mean, you can still clip using a compressor if you set your gain too high. If you use a limiter and set its threshhold correctly, then that will guarantee you don't clip.

IMO, compression during tracking has its place but you need to be careful not to overdo it. Like any processing or effect you use between the source and recording device, if you end up not liking it, most of the time the only way to fix it is to re-track it. OTOH, if your source is very dynamic (wide range in volume levels), then a compressor can help bring the quieter levels up more (closer to the loud levels) so they can be heard better. Remember, noise also gets brought up with compression - another reason to not overdo compression.

Sciene1, I suggest you using your Marshall mic into your ART pre directly into your audio card. If the screams are much too loud compared to the regular singing, you may want to use an outboard limiter. As I said before, a compressor can also help - you just need to make sure you set the parameters correctly.

[ScienceOne]

Ok, you guys have to stay with me here, I need lots of help. Here are my primary questions:

1) What's wrong with my Behringer mixer?? I was about to go out and get one of the 24 channel versions for miking drums. Howabout that Mackie 16 channel with xdr preamps? I need a talkback mic though, how could i get that with the Mackie?

2)Don't tell me my Marshall MXL-2001 and Art Tube MP suck, do they really? I thought they were good stuff, the Tube MP is so popular! Could I not just keep the mic and preamp and get a hardware compressor/limiter/gate?

3) If the Tube MP really does suck, then what? Howabout a Joe Meek? Presonus?

4) What about the Marshall mic, howabout a Rode, AKG, or Oktava?

5) Compression, limiting, and gating are all soooooo subtle, how can i truly tell if its doing anything or if im overdoing it?

6) All i want is a great vocal take that will sit well in the mix!!!!!!!! Help me!!

[keilson]

I think the Marshall MXL-2001 sux. I like Audio Technica mics. I don't know much bout the Preamp you are using. Check reviews online before buying anything. Compression is not always subtle. If you an't hear the change is it possible you have the unit hooked up incorrectly? Behringer mixers are ok for beginners (I still use one), but the preamps are not very good. Best bet go with Mackie if you need a new board.

[riffing]

Sci1,

You need to keep in mind that there are some real professionals that post on this board, not just home recordists/hobbyists. The pros expectations are higher than a hobbyists and rightfully so. What can usually help in your quest for gear advice is your budget. How much can you spend on what? For example, Mackie preamps, many will agree, are better than Behringers. But many will also agree that Avalon and Neve pres (to name a couple) are better than Mackie. So which should you buy? A lot depends on how much you're willing to spend.

Post how much $$$ you can spend and you'll get more realistic advice.

[NYMorningstar]

Hey Bro,

There's nothing wrong with your mixer,mic or the art tube. You just need to learn how to use what you have. If this dude wants to sing soft with some loud passages then there's a combination of things that need to happen. First, when he wants to scream he needs to learn to back off the mic, it's rather that simple. Getting him to do it is another thing but in the mean time for $99 you can pick up Behringer Composer Pro which is a combination gate, compressor and limiter. Hook that sucker into your PA rack and patch it into 2 channels on your board pre EQ. Read the manual that comes with it and get used to the different settings and what they do. You're gonna slap yourself upside the head and say why didn't I do this before. The best part is you'll get this professional sound that you can use for your gigs too. And oh ya, how's my CD coming along

[ScienceOne]

I'm only 16, I can't spend tens of thousads on gear............. yet. I knew I could count on NYMorningstar to give it to me straight. I want to get that little Mackie board with 16 channels (all have mic inputs), but would one of those large Behringers be fine too? I have to tube MPs that i can use as stereo preamps so I dont have to rely on the ones in the Behringer. All i want is to be able to record all types of vocal tracks with good sound. Is my gear really ok? Even the mic?
About that cd, that is what I'm working on now, that is why i opened this thread. Teenagers are difficult, even the 20 year-olds that i work with are whiny little punks. They don't want to record drums first, but dont want to use a metronome either, they complain about the sound when they arent doing anything to help me. You're gonna have to wait a while man. I hate to tell you that.

[TexRoadkill]

Science, If you were recording opera I would say you need a better signal path but for rock you should be fine. Chances are any shortcomings in your recordings at this point in your career are not due to equipment.

The MXL 2001 does have a reputation for being a bit harsh sounding and as always it is nice to have a few mics to choose from. The MXL v67 is a nice mic for pretty cheap and the SM57 is a good mic for electric guitar and screaming vocals.

[chessparov]

Science, if I was in your situation here's what I'd probably do;

1) Save the "plug-ins" mostly for mix time other than some
moderate (3:1 ratio or less/6 db or less) compression on
the vocals. You can use more compression later if applicable.
2) Sell the Marshall and get a Studio Projects B1 condenser.
3) Sell the Art tube MP and get;
For under $200 a Studio Projects VTB-1, getting one shortly
BTW
4) Use the Behringer mixer without using it as a mic pre, it
should be fine for your normal mixing purposes.
(putting on flame-retardent jacket)
5) If you get a second microphone the SM57 is a great idea for
instruments/hard rock vocals

Hope this helps!
Chris

P.S. The website for Studio Projects is
www.studioprojectsusa.com

[NYMorningstar]

Glad to hear you're working on that CD. Take your time though and get it right, that's the idea. Sure your equipment is ok and yes the large Behringer boards are good, even the pre's a pretty decent for your live gigs. You just have to ignore the political climate around Behringer products and you'll do fine with them. Tex and Chessparov have some great ideas too if you need more mics that won't break the bank. I especially like the MXL v67 which you can pick up at Mars for $99 too and with that Comproser Pro it'll sound pretty much like a Neumann. Learn to bite your tongue a bit now for the whiners or they'll probably quit on you. Get what you need from them and then if you have too cut them loose. Good luck with the project, looking forward to it!

[crosstudio]

if you are recording a band and have the capability to record 8 or more tracks at a time, then i would sell the behringer and get at least a mackie 1604 vlz pro. if you can afford a 24-channel mackie then do so... i've got the 1604 which works excellently for what i do (vocals, guitars, bass, sound canvas, drum machine). i have never actually run out of channels while trying to record an actual band, but i'm always having to make decisions.

if your just recording 2 tracks at a time and have the 2 ART tube MP's, then I would get a better mic and just rock it with the ARTs for now. Eventually, you'll get tired of the ARTs and upgrade your mic-pre.

take a look at the DMP3 by M-Audio. I've gotten pretty good results from the mic-pre that is on my M-Audio Duo USB mic-pre. I don't like the USB aspects of the Duo (so i got the Tascam US-428), but i do like the mic-pre.

http://www.midiman.com/products/m-audio/dmp3.php

as far as microphones are concerned, I've got an audio technica 4033 that i just love, love, love for vocals.

PS. I hate compressing anything during tracking. tell your singer to back off the mic slightly during the screaming parts. for me, i'd rather go into the audio wave during mixing and change the volume envelope of the quiter parts to bring them up than to compress them during tracking.

[chessparov]

Science, if you're tracking to 24 bit you have enough headroom to do
your vocal tracks without compression, then add it during mixing.
If you're going to 16 bit (like me!), that's another story.
Down the road, when you shop for an upgraded mixer, you may want to
check out the Soundcraft M series too.

Chris

[littledog]

Originally posted by NYMorningstar
I especially like the MXL v67 which you can pick up at Mars for $99 too and with that Comproser Pro it'll sound pretty much like a Neumann.

But what if you don't want to sound like Alfred E. Neumann?