Metal People Calling All Metal People

[Analytical Man]

I am curious if anyone has tips on getting really giant guitar tones in the vein of Pantera, and are there any metal people on this board. I am using a Line 6 Spider 120 watt for recording, and a full stack Flextone live. Tuned to drop B check out my. I am recording our bands demo on a Roland VS2480cd, and i have really good tone, i just want to make it bigger and weightier, and more spacious. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. bands website www.emotionalflatline.com

[Blue Bear Sound]

There is no need to cross-post to multiple forums.... put your question in the most appropriate forum - the regulars see all new posts anyways, regardless of what forum they're in.............

[jakemyth]

Hey metal man......try making multiple tracks of your guitar.

We did a cd and our guitarist had to do 4 guitar tracks we have a very big sound on the cd and that was tuned to A.

enjoy
jake

[vwall]

yes indeed the layered track thing is very common.
but for live sound, that massive gain was acheived via Solid state power amps.

I like the crunch that he gets but am not a fan of solid state.

i bought a vht ultra lead, this ampo can get that sound too its tubed with kt88's ;-)
otherwise, you may want to look into processed distortion.

[Alchemist3k]

Yeah, this is simply down to multi-tracking and separation.

1) Good sound starts with good tone. You say you have one. Good.

2) Record each guitar part you want to sound big several times (at least three). Standard idea is pan one hard left, one hard right and one down the middle. Often the same tone on the amp is used but perhaps for the centre guitar use a different guitar if you have one.

3) Adding a hint of chorus, reverb (a hint I say!) can also help but may not be appropriate in all cases.


Thing is you tune so low that your sound may end up being muddy. These things are hard to get right. Korn's debit is a classic example. Their best album but worst produced, compared to their third and latest albums it sounds poor.

Also, try not to use as heavy a tone in recording as you would live. The multitracking will make it sound heavy anyway but too heavy a tone never sounds good recorded. Use an appropriate amount of distortion!


A second technique is to record a part once and pan it hard to one speaker, let's say the left. Then use a mono delay with a setting of about 20ms and pan that sound hard right. It gives the impression of a bigger sound but I get the impression that this is more appropriate for lead solos or 80s rock style where the purpose is to get a full rather than big sound.



PS I get the impression that Blue Bear has commented on this in other forums. Whatever he says will invariably be right. Also please refrain from cross posting in future. Thanks.

[Roel]

Originally posted by Alchemist3k
Also, try not to use as heavy a tone in recording as you would live. The multitracking will make it sound heavy anyway but too heavy a tone never sounds good recorded. Use an appropriate amount of distortion!

Don't use too heavy a sound live either. I've mixed alot of metal and hardcore bands. Too much distortion makes it sound like white noise. The only thing to allow people to hear what the guitar is playing is to put it above everything else. It IS guitarorientated music, and the guitars have to be pretty loud, but you don't want the drums and everything else to drown in there completely. So don't use too much distortion.

I hate too much distortion. You have to look for a guitarsound that sounds good in the band, not on your own..... That's the trick.

I saw a hardcore gig with a very good sound a while ago, after the show I took the mixer to the back, knocked him down, hit him in the face a few times, and forced him to tell me his tricks. He used 2 mics on every amp, one left of the cab, one right, aimed away from eachother, then he panned them left/right. Gives a very full sound. Broader. Saw it on a live clip on tele too...

He said, this is what he did when they didn't have too much efx etc.... Otherwise he'd throw in harmonizers etc. (So I started beating him some more... Using harmonizers live... Oh boy... That was just too much. He died shortly afterwards. I told them it was those metalguys from the band afterwards that did it... Harmonizers....)

[Alchemist3k]

LOL. Yeah, I remember reading that post.

[detuned6]

i AGREE, get a good sound from the room where the amp is then cut a lil bass, and dist. Layering also will help acheive that massive tone. Dont cut your mids like so many metal guys like to do. I like to use to differant tube heads as apposed to layering the same tone on many tracks. helps the spread (for me) in my ears. Metal..................

[Wireneck]

Well I was hoping you had sounds up on your website, so i could hear what type of guitar sound you are getting. I think most of the other guys posting have covered the tricks for full guitars. Would like to hear a sample of Wisconsin's heaviest, brutal metal. Looking over your site Slipknot keeps jumping in my mind , i guess its the whole 6 6 sick thing. Maybe if you post a sample of what you have recorded so far, we can give you some more help. Not that i know what im doing anyways though.

[Analytical Man]

I have tried all of the things that you have all told me to do, so i guess i am probably not going to get much bigger a guitar sound. Althgough i may look into the delay thing. I didn't crosspost, i just headed a couple of my threads the same thing. Sorry to throw ya... Wireneck, if you want to hear some of music i can send you our first demo, if you send me an address. My website has my email. But the demo is not near the quality of our current album. We are not at all like slipknot, mor Mudvayne, Pantera...maybe a little like slipknot on the guitars. thanks everyone.

[Wireneck]

Analytical Man,
ill send you my info later through email when I get a chance. I am also a pantera fan, if you have time check out this cover of cemetary gates my band did. http://wireneck.layzee.org/gatesfinal.mp3
oh yeah Im the guitar player
later

[Alchemist3k]

Well, Dimebag gets his heavy sound from using Randall solid state amps (yes, not tube!) through a rareish MXR 21 band graphic equaliser. Trust me, that gives a BIG sound on its own!

[Lopp]

In between Madison and Wausau, eh?

Good suggestions above.

Also, make sure you cram that mic, preferrably a SM57, right up against the grill towards the center of the speaker as a starting point. You can then make subtle angle and locatin changes according to the sound you want.

Additionally, I am not a fan of using panned delay to thicken up your tone. It can often end up with phasing problems which can vary with each system it is played back on.

[Alchemist3k]

Well pointing an SM57 towards the front of the speaker will likely give an over-bright tone. That particular issue is best tackled in the mics forum.

[Analytical Man]

I am now trying the combination of micing off axis with the sm 57 up to the edge of the cone, and the condensor mic a few feet back in the room. I wonder if i also mic from behind, and reverse the signal so that the 57 in front and in back are in faze, would that possibly thicken up the tone? And the band is about an hour north of Madison. We are playing at Doomsaday 2002 at The Rave in Milwaukee with about 10 other metal, and rock bands from Wisconsin, and Illinois. August 31st. 10 bucks a ticket... Show is gonna rock. Sorry i rambled right off the subject.

[participant]

that I have used could give you a hint more thickness (wall of sound)...

Record your doubled electrics as usual. Pan hard right/left. Then record an acoustic/clean electric in support of the melody (doubled, if desired). Pan the tracks a shade away from hard right/left. Using a different guitar/different pickup will help too.

The reason I did this was since we wanted the wall of sound, we compressed the crap out of the distorted rhythm guitars, using two compressors in the signal chain -- none of the lead transients got through! So, we put the melody back in with the clean electric.


Chad

[Lopp]

Originally posted by Alchemist3k
Well pointing an SM57 towards the front of the speaker will likely give an over-bright tone. That particular issue is best tackled in the mics forum.

This issue is appropriate for both the guitar forum and the mics forum. And yes, the guys in the mics forum could also give some valuable input.

Be that as it may, the technique will not necessarily give an over-bright tone. Sticking a SM57 right up against the grill is going to increase the proximity effect for a fuller sound. Analytical Man said he liked his tone to begin with. The position of the mic described will give a great sound given the fact he likes his tone to begin with.

There is more to placing the mic than just "pointing an SM57 towards the front of the speaker." The distance from the speaker will dramatically affect the tone. Also, subtle changes of the angle of the mic will also have a large effect on the tone.

[Lopp]

Originally posted by Analytical Man
I am now trying the combination of micing off axis with the sm 57 up to the edge of the cone, and the condensor mic a few feet back in the room. I wonder if i also mic from behind, and reverse the signal so that the 57 in front and in back are in faze, would that possibly thicken up the tone?

I'm personally not a big fan of multiple mics for a huge tone. However, they supposedly used at least 8 mics for Hetfield's amp on recent albums. Also, mic'ing off-axis will reduce the highs in your tone. If your tone is too bright, this technique may be useful.

A few other tips:

Delay, reverb, chorus, etc. can often make a track sound less "in your face."

Tight guitar playing with less distortion can often sound fuller. Especially with multiple guitar tracks. Sloppy playing can reduce the hugeness.

Don't forget the bass! A full, tight bass tone can also thicken up the guitars. As with guitars, sloppy bass playing will detract from the hugeness.

You also need to get a correct balance between the bass guitar, the bass drum, and the lower frequencies of the guitar. EQ and adjust the levels of each appropriately.

And the band is about an hour north of Madison. We are playing at Doomsaday 2002 at The Rave in Milwaukee with about 10 other metal, and rock bands from Wisconsin, and Illinois. August 31st. 10 bucks a ticket... Show is gonna rock. Sorry i rambled right off the subject.

Good to know. Which slot did you get?

[Analytical Man]

We are playing right about where i like to play, middle of the road. The show starts at 3:30, and we hit the stage at about 7:00, or 7:30, i have to check the schedule again. I am gonna check out the Cemetary Gates cover, let you know what i think. I am looking into a 31 band EQ for my guitar, everyone tells me to steer clear from the digital ones, i don't know almost all of my gear is digital and i think i get very proffessional recording. I just want to smooth out some grit from the guitars, but still maintain that huge sound. MP3's will be up on the site as soon as i figure out how to post em. Later

[smellyfuzz]

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EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
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KILL MY MOM, KILL MY MOM.................... OH YEA..........

[detuned6]

no, no ,no..... its kill your mother, rape your dog!

[Alchemist3k]

For other cras, yet vile, lyrics see any 'tune' (and I use the term loosely) by 'Cannibal Corpse'.

[Chris Tondreau]

For a band so brutally bad, they're great - not that you can understand the lyrics - check out Anal ****. Hilarious!

You Own a Store!!! YOU Own a STOOOOOORRRRRE!

Chris

[detuned6]

Anal **** has a song called " the internet is gay", funny stuff.

[Analytical Man]

Brutal in more mainstream listenable way for E.F.[
Not a shitty death metal style ( CC, AC)
Think Pantera, Slayer, Slipknot, Mudvayne, Fear factory