The Reference CD dilema

[nave]

Ok.....This how I saw it and this is how I'm seeing it now


Before I started to record music I used to think that one's own style and influences was soley in terms of song structure, the types of chord progressions one writes, the types of licks one plays, the types of lyrics one writes etc..etc..etc..For example, I was influenced by alot of folk music, grateful dead and stuff like that. However, if you play in that style with say distortion instead of clean guitar sounds you wind up with a completely different sound.

So what I'm saying is that, now that I've started recording and really listening to music that's out there I've realized that, when recording, the types of sounds that one chooses actually determine what you are going to sound like at least as much if not more then the actual technique and style your playing is derived from. I find that this presents a disturbing challenge and kind of confuses me. God, recording is so much different then just playing when you are not thinking about all those things...i.e. what sound you are going to use, what mic technique etc..etc......

So when someone steals or mimicks someone elses style, are they not necessarily stealing the intangibles in regards to playing technique, song structure and all that other stuff???....are they actually just stealing the method that a person used to present their music??? seems that way to me.


I don't know if that makes any sense to anyone or not....but look at it this way.....when songs are stripped down to say just an accoustic guitar, and a voice and maybe a bass guitar...most songs are going to sound pretty damn similar because they are presented in the same way........We can all strum away on a G chord with an accoustic guitar and it's gonna sound pretty much the same....it's when you start to add all the variables that come along with recording that people start to sound really different from each other and/or similar to something else that has been done before...........

I'm realizing that I have way more work to do interms of identifying what kind of player I am...(and that it's not based so much on my actual playing as it is the context that my playing is presented) If you would have told me that two years ago I would have said you are crazy, I know what kind of guitar player and songwriter I am damn it!!!!!!....Now that I've started recording, listening to all the reference CD's I like (which are all so different) and dabbling with the infinite number of variables that come along with selecting the proper sounds I just don't know anymore.....and I must say that since I've been playing guitar for 15 years now...that comes as quite a disturbence to me......DAMN!!! I've finally got to the point where I've accumulated enough techinical 'know how' to start recording something decent and I just don't know what direction I should take that knowledge in.... Sorry, I guess this is just a typical "woes of the one man band" type venting and ranting thread.........who knows though....maybe something good will come out of it...hopefully. I don't even know what freakin forum this should be in.....if there was a musician's therapy/psyche forum it would probably be appropriate there.

[Henri Devill]

You will never be "happy" or should I say "content" !Part of being a "artist" is the constant struggle with the canvas!Its part of the artistic cond. To be "happy" means the search is over , it never is though!How can anyone capture "beauty" and hold it ?Once you've seen her you long to see her again...You can't because she moves too fast!She mutates and she is elusive!Maybe the only way to catch her is when you arn't lookin' ,then you will notice that shes sitting right there next to you...Which really means is let it come to you !If you think too much about it you will never see "her"....Or don't think about it it will come to you!!Just my rambleings..Good luck


Don

[crawdad]

My first advice is to not listen to what everybody else might do and begin to think about what YOU want to do with the sonic landscape of your songs. Most of that stuff is flavor of the month anyway.

Listen to your own muse. What sounds do you hear in your head? Think about the bass and drums, for instance. What sound do you want? As you strum your acoustic, what other instruments do you hear accompanying that? Do you hear it as an electric guitar song or an acoustic song? A mix?

I think the most important thing is to be true to yourself and your own vision. Somethimes you have to sit back and let your imagination paint the picture for you. Then, its a matter of trying to capture what your imagination has painted. It always ends up a little different in the end. Accept that.

The last thing you want to do is decide you want to sound just like--band a, b, c. Its about what you want to be and what is in your soul. Don't worry about all these other records. Make your choices based on what pleases you. Chances are it will surprise and please other too!

[theron]

Nave,

Just a couple comments that I hope have relevance.

Look what happened to Blues when the first bold picker plugged in with distortion. Shunned by purist and infused a new life into the art of blues. The birth of the git slinger, the mother of rock and roll and the reason that blues is still alive and not a folklore memory. Point being, throw whatever suits you on top of any style that you've learned and embraced.

Dylan was scorned for playing folk music with an electric guitar.....

I think that the really good music that you can't quite identify, pigeon hole or classify is a sign of musics evolution. You can't put your finger on it, not because it is so new or unique. But, because is so intelligently, soulfully, and reverently incorporates all of it's parents with a vehement eye on what it wants or needs to sound like.


Follow your muse and soak up and blasphemise all that has ever caught your fancy before. Make Nave music

Hope that wasn't too off topic.

Peace,

Theron.

[nave]

Stuff that I kind of already knew but it definately doesn't hurt to hear it coming from someone else...in fact that's probably what I needed so thanks....

[analog4]

Hey Nave,

Just dropping in between festivals.........

Firstly, The muddle you find yourself in, I believe, is common to
all songwriters when they really start to study what they're doing.
I agree effects are important but a good song is a good song whatever the presentation. Sitting in our studios navel gazing
and trying to create the definative sound can be a frustrating and
counter-productive exercise for anyone.

My advice would be to pick up your trusty guitar and go play your
stuff somewhere---anywhere routinely as part of your personal development program.. In music mileage is important....

Good luck--I'm sure you'll get to where you're going.

Graham.

[beaverbiscuit]

I'm probably not really qualified to spout off here, but it sounds like you're frustrated with the seemingly overwhelming number of choices you have in front of you (OH, THE POWER!!! :P ) in terms of "flavoring" your music, nave. I'm still in the process of learning how to route signals and use my gear, but I've been reading up and listening a lot, and sometimes I feel the same way you do.

But then I remind myself that I don't have to figure out everything overnight, since there isn't a test on this stuff. The only test is the listening test: Does the recording sound good? If not, then try again. If it does, can it be better?

Yeah, production can have a great deal to do with how you sound, but I believe that you will still sound like you regardless of who the producer is. Chas Chandler produced the first two Hendrix albums but not *Electric Ladyland*, yet that third album is still recognizably Jimi, right? Or look at three albums by XTC — *Skylarking*, *Oranges and Lemons*, and *Nonsuch*. All three feature different producers and engineers, but they all still sound like XTC.

I don't know if I'm even on the same page here with you, but hopefully you see what I'm getting at. Cheers!

[nave]

analog>>>>>>>>>Firstly, The muddle you find yourself in, I believe, is common to all songwriters when they really start to study what they're doing. I agree effects are important but a good song is a good song whatever the presentation. Sitting in our studios navel gazing and trying to create the definative sound can be a frustrating and counter-productive exercise for anyone.


What's up analog......how you been?.....'the good song is a good song' thing has always kind of been my philosophy too....I guess I should just put that philosophy to use though, & stop fretting over choosing a snare or kick drum from the 500 damn single hit samps I've accumulated...It's stuff like that that is counter productive and when I focus too long on all those minor details, I lose site of the bigger picture and the 'gel' of the song just seems to fall apart as a result.



beaver>>>>>>>>>>>Yeah, production can have a great deal to do with how you sound, but I believe that you will still sound like you regardless of who the producer is.


Yah I totally know what you are saying, you are on the 'same page'...you always do wind up sounding like yourself.....but my problem has been which self do I want to sound like..I don't like the idea of having to put something in concrete form because like henri devil said, I won't ever be fully satisfied with it..I'm just a confused musician on my own; with too many damn influences...It reminds me of this time when I was a teenager sitting in some cafe listening to these jazz musicians play. Between sets I talked to the guitar player about his influences and he rambled off the typical jazz standard type names...He identified with a certain type of musician...I really don't identify with any one particular type of musician....I asked him what about people who are influenced by everything, shouldn't you be open to all types of music and influences...and he said "those guys with too many influences just normally wind up confused" I laughed at the time and didn't take him seriously....Now I see what he means...I mean I've been writing songs for a long while. I've played in classic rock bands, jazz/blues groups and heavy metal bands and whenever I wrote a song it was just played/performed in the context/genre of the band that I was playing in at the time. All those things were me, a part of me, whether it was shread metal or classic rock or jazz or blues or whatever. Now with all these influences, it becomes hard for me to define what I'm trying to do and to be able to put it in a coherent cohesive context that allows me to understand what it is I'm exactly going for is the challenge. Ultimately I suppose I'm just going to have to go with the flow and see where it leads me......to 'nave' music...I guess...like crawdad said.....


Thank you both for your input