I get no reverb (and no chorus either)

[Eisenbart]

Hi there!

Well, just when I thought I had understood this stuff...

In order to learn how to use Sonar, I composed a tiny little project consisting of nothing but 2 midi tracks, so I can play around with it. However, when I wanted to add some reverb I learned that it does not work. Whatever value I set for reverb, I do not hear any! The chorus does not work either.

As I've said, the project consists of two midi tracks, one on channel 1 and the other on channel 2. I sent both tracks to the synth of my sound card, which is a SoundBlaster 128 PCI by the way.

Is there anything I oversaw?

[dachay2tnr]

Not sure what you mean by does not work. To my knowledge there is no Reverb or Chorus effects supplied with Sonar for Midi. Only for Audio.

If by "does not work" you mean they are grayed out, then that is correct. That's because they will only work on audio tracks.

If I'm not understanding your question correctly, give me some more information describing what you're trying to do.

[Lord Wan]

Well Eisenbart, you must be speaking of Midi controlled Reverb and Chorus...
That works only if the sound module has a built-in effect. Most expanders have. For the SB PCI 128, i don't know...

Note :

What i know is that almost all sound modules have only one global effect for reverb and chorus, thus working more like an aux send / return than an insert. The only setting per part ( or midi channel ) is the amount of reverb and chorus ( the 'aux send' ).

So, most of the time, you get the same reverb and chorus setting for all drum sounds ( on channel 10 )...

What i want to point out is that this can get very complicated...you'd better record 'dry' midi tracks to audio tracks. Then apply software effects.

[Eisenbart]

@dachay2tnr: I was talking of the Reverb and Chorus faders that you have for each midi track. I can set a value from 0 to 127, but nothing changes i.e. there is no audible reverb or chorus.

The SoundBlaster 128 PCI seems to support midi reverb because I get corresponding options in the Windows mixer (and they do work, i.e. I can clearly hear reverb and chorus when I switch it on). However, I got no control over it from within Sonar.

@Lord Wan: I am somewhat of a newbie to this stuff, could you briefly explain the difference between an 'aux send' and an 'insert'?

Thanks so far!

[Lord Wan]

The 'aux send' and 'insert' metaphores come from hardware mixing consoles.
When you want to apply an effect to a signal, there is mainly two points where it can be done, along the signal path :

- INSERT : inserted before settings (eq, pan, fader, etc... )

in this case, no other signal may use the same effect ( or the other one would undergo settings of the first signal ). This is mostly used to apply full signal processing like compression, noise gate, etc...

- after settings : may be after fader ( post ) or before ( pre ). this is called an AUXILLIARY path

In this case, several signals can be 'pre-mixed' before being sent to the effect. All signals go through the same effect but each can be pre-mixed with a different level ( the Aux send parameter ).
The processed signal is then mixed back with the MAIN signal path. There is also a big side effect here, you have BOTH original ( dry ) signal and processed ( wet ) signal. So you can choose the global effect level in you mix ( through the Aux return setting ).


Sonar uses the same system : you can have private effects per track ( but you end up using a lot of cpu resources if every track needs two or three effects ). Or you can have effects on the auxilliray path ( but then the effect setting is shared by all tracks ).

Most of the time, you'll use per track effects for full signal processing like compression, noise gate, pitch shifting, etc.. and you will use global effects to add coloration to the sound ( like reverb, vinyl glitches, etc... ) That make sense to use the same 'room ambience' for all instruments ( they are supposed to play together )

For sound modules, effects is often a big problem. You can have different effects on each parts but it requires big processing power. So this feature only appears in top notch sound modules.
For semi-pro module, you only get the global reverb and chorus settings, and maybe a third selectable global effect ( like in my Roland JV-1010 ).

Anyway, you may use global effects from sound modules during monitoring, but you surely don't want to record synth with their effects on when it's time to do the mastering. It's better to record each part 'dry', then apply software effects per tracks.
For exemple, if you use a delay on a ryhtmic bass-line to create an off-beat groove effect, once it is recorded 'wet' you can't change song tempo anymore...

I hope this helps.

[Torpid-x]

Originally posted by Eisenbart
The SoundBlaster 128 PCI seems to support midi reverb because I get corresponding options in the Windows mixer (and they do work, i.e. I can clearly hear reverb and chorus when I switch it on). However, I got no control over it from within Sonar.

I have a Sound Blaster live and it doesn't support midi reverb and chorus. You're probably adding audio reverb and chorus to the output signal, through the sound card drivers. You can tell the difference if... when you add reverb and chorus, all sounds, not just midi are effected by it.

If that's the case, it doesn't effect the midi signal at all, that's just effects added between the output signal and speakers. if you have a "What you hear" recording option, you can record an audio track with those effect, otherwise it's bypassed in Cakewalk (it might work recording an audio track with "midi" as recording option also, not sure). This defeats the purpose of audio plug-ins.

I never used a SB 128, but I'm pretty sure if it supported midi chorus and reverb, the SBLive would to.

You really have to start converting your midi to audio, to mix.

Just like the 660...
Midi = Program
Audio = Record & Mix

[moskus]

I have a Sound Blaster live and it doesn't support midi reverb and chorus

Me too, but I use reverb and chorus all the time. There's a little trick to it that I don't remember at the time. I'm at work so I can't check how, but will come back tomorrow

[Lord Wan]

Yes, i do too have an SB Live and if you open the Creative Mixer you can define environnement effects with level from 1 to 100 on each item of the mixer ( like for the wave out, the synth, the cd, etc... ).

But i don't think you can control it from within Sonar ( except by using some obscure undocumented Sysex messages ) since it's intended for gaming ambiances, and games are calling DirectX functions.

Furthermore, this setting is not restored when you start the PC, you have to open the mixer at least once...

Another tip, if you use an external 'solid-state' mixer for real music hardware : it is to use the quadriphonic output as two separate stereo output.

Again, it's in the Creative Mixer.
- Select a quadriphonic speaker system.
- Then, highlight the waveout and the synth icons.
- Then, on the image representing a listener from top, move the wave icon in complete front and the synth icon completly on the back.

This way, you'll have all audio tracks coming out on 'front stereo' ( green jack ) and all soundfonts sounds coming out on 'back stereo ( black jack ).

The audio should go to the mixer in the "2-tracks in" and the soundfont sounds on one standard stereo entry of your mixer.

The pros of this setup : you can use equalization and external effects on the synth sounds without affecting the main audio.
The cons : you have to open the Creative Mixer once, each time you start Windows or the setting is not restored.

[Eisenbart]

Well, according to what has been said, the Windows mixer is just a global effect applied to all signals, and my cheap SB 128 can't handle per-track reverb.

[Torpid-x]

Set up and arm an audio track, solo a midi track, hit record.
Don't forget to set up the windows mixer to record midi.

You can add any per track audio effect you want (have), your going to have to convert them anyway, might as well do it before trying to mix.

You can also set up busses if your using the same settings for effects used on multiple tracks, to save CPU power.

[moskus]

But i don't think you can control it from within Sonar ( except by using some obscure undocumented Sysex messages ) since it's intended for gaming ambiances, and games are calling DirectX functions.

No need for obscure sysex messages, just use the sliders in Sonar. Works like a charm if you set up the AudioHQ right...

But yesterday I forgot to see how it was done... D'oh!
Let's try again tomorrow.

[Eisenbart]

@torpid-x: I'm not sure wether I'm getting it right, but it does not work the way you described. I set up the Windows mixer to record from the master output, set the reverb of the midi track to maximum, recorded the midi to audio but there was no reverb. The recording, however, was otherwise successful.

[Torpid-x]

Sorry about the slow reply, my modem died on me...


no no no... now you add a reverb plug-in to the audio track, forget about the midi reverb. once recorded, you can add any effects you want. reverb, chorus, EQ, flange, etc....