how do I limit the signal and then compress

[daltyboy]

i know how to compress after you have recorded but how do i limit and then compress?

[TexRoadkill]

limiting is just compression with an extremely high ratio, usually about 10:1 or greater.

If you want a brickwall limiter (nothing gets through) set the attack to the fastest possible setting and the ratio to the highest possible setting.

[daltyboy]

so what do i do? do i wanna set the compressor to this ratio and then record through the compressor at this ratio?

then when its all recorded send the signal through the compressor again at a different ratio.

[TexRoadkill]

that's pretty much it. Why do you need to limit and compress?

[wascal]

a little light limiting reduces signal peaks does it not?

limiting does not raise the noise floor does it?

a little light limiting before compression can therefore reduce the dynamic range somewhat without adding noise.

if the dynamic range is already reduce a little then you can get your hotter signal with less compression. you do want a hotter signal dont you?

YOU DO THIS TO YOUR SIGNAL BEFORE IT GOES INTO THE RECORDER.

so you either get 2 single channel compressors or a single 2 channel compressor.

you connect 2 compressors in series!

the first one is set for light limiting.

the second one is set for light compression.

you dont have to do this nobody is trying to force you.

[daltyboy]

I want to limit and compress so i can get a more professional recording by getting a hotter signal.

can the RNC $175 compressor do all this? is it gonna work good or be half ass.

[TexRoadkill]

You guys are a little misguided there.

True a little limiting or compression going to tape does raise the RMS and therefore give you more distance from the format noise floor but it will also raise the noise floor of the mic, preamp and ambient room noise. It's a matter of choosing between 2 lesser evils and would depend on the situation.

If you are using casette or 16bit there may be some advantage to that but not really in 24bit where the noise floor is too low to really worry about.

There are always trade-offs and no such thing as a fee lunch.

[daltyboy]

thanx for your replies guys and i dont want to sound annonying
but i just got alot of questions about this,

I got a 1680 (24bit) so what should i do, Im concerned about compression and "squishing" the signal for the overall volume gain.

how should i go about this?
limit?
just compress?
both?

please be specific to,im new to compression.

[daltyboy]

does anyone know?

[mstudio1224@aol.com]

Behringer Composer 2100 Compressor/Limiter 2 channel processor $80

[wascal]

"we" are misguided?

i think not.

there is a difference between compressing whilst still in the analog realm and waiting until youre in the digital realm. any effecting done in the digital realm adds noise and distortion too so dont try to scare "us".

a lot of ppls like analog compression better and "we" recommend doing it before going in for obvious reasons. or maybe not obvious?

a lot of ppls like compressing in stages rather than all at once. in this case it is only logical to use a compressor before going in.

if you have to worry so much about noise then maybe you have unusual problems and dont know how to use your equpiment properly. noise is not a problem in my home studio.

[TexRoadkill]

Well you wascal. I actually dont have a problem with noise so I dont worry about limiting before compression. The assumptions you made in your earlier post were misleading to people who may not be as experienced as yourself.

Daltyboy there is a lot of info on compression in these forums. www.digido.com has some good tutorials also.

[TexRoadkill]

Actually I was giving wascal some undue respect.

a little light limiting reduces signal peaks does it not?

Yes that is it's purpose.

limiting does not raise the noise floor does it?

Of course it does. Limiting is no different than compression in that respect and from a 'colorization' standpoint limiting is much harsher on the original tone than compression.

a little light limiting before compression can therefore reduce the dynamic range somewhat without adding noise.

This is a completely false assumption. See above.

there is a difference between compressing whilst still in the analog realm and waiting until youre in the digital realm. any effecting done in the digital realm adds noise and distortion too so dont try to scare "us".

I'm not trying to scare anyone just educate. In general digital limiting is preferred because of it's look ahead ability. But this adds latency and is better done during mix or mastering. Yes, analog compression is preferred by many.

I'm not sure who the 'we' is that you keep referring to but it is obviously not anybody who knows what they are doing. If somebody is already recording with 24bit digital than SNR is not an issue and dynamics processing while tracking is not needed.

If somebody is using analog then some slight limiting or compression before hitting tape may be usefull. But any type of dynamics processing will color the sound and reduce the SNR in that segment of the audio chain preceding the processing so it should be used wisely.

[volltreffer]

High!

Here's a nice link to some articles on compression and limiting:

http://www.studiocovers.com/articles3.htm

High Tex!

I think you're completely right (though YOU know it): ANY compression/limiting will raise the sound-noise-ratio. That's an inevitable side-effect... I think you're right here also: when it comes to recording on 24bit machines, tracking compression should not be necessary. But on 16bitters, IMO, it is almost a must.

On my vs880 with 16bit converters, I often use slight compression (2:1) and a brickwall limiter when recording 'important' tracks (vox...) All those guys on the 'inferior' machines should not be afraid of compression and limiting while tracking. IMO it is more important to try a lot. Only then you'll know how to achieve a result with dynamics when you need it. I heard some songs from guys who always stated that compression artefacts are spoiling every sound so they don't use compression anymore. The songs were lacking ANY power! Why? Because these guys hear something that 'compression colours your sound' and that 'when properly recorded, you don't need EQ', so they don't use dynamics and EQ and their sound is shit. Perhaps they've tried once to EQ, and the sound was worse and so they state no compression, no EQ... I may not be that experienced as an audio engineer, but I am as control engineer, and IMO one basic property of any engineer should be experience in what input (i.e. compression setting) will lead to what result...

As long as the limiter limits for VERY short time (1-2 samples), you'll not hear it (I don't hear even longer periods on my voice, but I have a quite 'distorted' sounding voice...). But I'm not sure whether it is necessary anyway, as the VS converters seem to limit already in their digital distortion ( so you don't have a wrap-around effect that REALLY gives bad sound). But it makes me feel better, anyway, and the limit led is never lit, so why not use it, if I feel better when tracking...

Ciao

Axel

[wascal]

trollveffer is wrong because s/he says that any compression/limiting will raise what s/he quaintly calls the "sound-noise-ratio" when actually since they reduce the signal peaks then obviously this reduces the s/n ratio.

tex threadkill is wrong because limiting does not raise the noise floor. you do that yourself when you raise the overall levels to take advantage of the increase in headroom.

compressors use a secondary gain stage which allows them to be used a "sustainers". anyone who has ever used a compressor on a noisy guitar signal knows that compressors raise the noise floor on the decay of notes. when used as limiters this will not occur.

[wascal]

ha ha ha i gave tex threadkill entirely too much credit!

at first i thought he was human!

now i know he is a chimp!

[TexRoadkill]

I gotta give you some credit Wascal. You are the most stubbornly ignorant person I have seen on these forums in quite some time and we get a lot of dumbasses in here.

[volltreffer]

High wascal!

Why then do you funny person use a limiter? Usually you do this to be able to record/mix louder or so what... But if you do, the noise will also be louder...

I'm really trying to be polite, as I don't want this to end up in a flame war like some other posts did. If you believe what you believe do so, try to explain your thoughts or leave it... I just tried to be helpful.

Ciao,

Axel

[wascal]

i have proven you both wrong logically and all you can do is pretend its not so.

i may not always be right but it cant be denied that i have proven you both wrong.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

tex threadkill's mother was obviously a chimp suffering from syphillis when she pooped him out. he is now a piece of living shit!

why do i use a limiter you ask trollveffer? well why do companies make limiters?

noise is not a problem for me.

i would be very surprised if ether of you dolts could make a pleasant recording. you probably both use drum loops and sequencers!

[TexRoadkill]

You have yet to prove anything but your own ignorance and lack of class. I can hear better insults from my grandmother so you'll have to try a little harder than that if you want to piss me off.

Here is some rough mixes of a current project I am doing with a singer/songwriter http://www.nowhereradio.com/texroadkill/singles

Let's hear your stuff bigshot.

[wascal]

wow thats really amazing!

i cant believe anybody would post that on the net!

was it really late at night and you didnt want to wake anybody up?

it sounds like a really tired hillbilly who cant sing but can play a little guitar.

i didnt hear anything that couldnt be recorded just as well on a stereo cassette deck with a pair of radio shack condensers!

if that was the best i had i wouldnt even pretend to know anything about recording!!! LOLOLOLOL!!!!

i have to admit though its better than what i expected LOLOLOL!!!

[TexRoadkill]

Big words coming from a guy who showed up empty handed to his own challenge.

[volltreffer]

Wascal!

If had a company that made a 'wurlabee' and sold it for much money, would you use just because someone made it and you don't know what its for ?

Usually you don't use a limiter because someone has build it, but in order to be able to record/mix/play music louder wihtout having to be afraid to get clipping/distortion, right?

Axel

[volltreffer]

Oh yeah I forgot: you seem to be one the guys who keep this flame war in the other thread alive... perhaps you like that

Axel

[Blue Bear Sound]

Originally posted by wascal
a little light limiting reduces signal peaks does it not?

It does...

limiting does not raise the noise floor does it?

It absolutely does - depending on the threshold setting.......

a little light limiting before compression can therefore reduce the dynamic range somewhat without adding noise.

No... the noise floor will raise, depending on where the threshold is..... if the threshold is 0dB then the noise floor will not change and you limit any signal that exceeds the threshold, but the minute you lower the threshold below 0 dB, the noise floor will change........


Bruce