Recording acoustic guitar

[gmiller1122]

Not sure if this would be best posted in the guitar forum, but here goes...

I had a Fishman under the saddle pickup put in my acoustic git a few months back. The luthier said it was an active pickup, but I didn't have him install the EQ (too queasy about a hole in my baby!)

Running my git through my Fender keyboard amp (100 watts,-- I used to use it for gigging w/a Dean Markley Pro Mag), it sounds like shit when I record it (direct to PC). A lot of high end pops.

Running my git through a compressor pedal only, it sounds better, but still poppy (buzzy).

Finally, unplugging the damn guitar and micing it about 6" from the neck/body connection gives me a VERY TRUE sound. Lovely.

No matter how much I mess w/ compression or EQ, the 1st 2 ways don't sound anywhere near as nice as the third. They make a perfectly good acoustic guitar sound like crap.

So, here are some thoughts...

1. Is this normal? Is micing an acoustic always better than direct recording?
2. Did I waste $ on the Fishman p'up?
3. Should I sell my bohemoth of an amp (I don't gig anymore) and, if so,
4. Should I buy a pre-amp, like the ART Tube Pre-amp? Will this work for vocals as well?

Thanks for reading! (hope this is clear)

[sjjohnston]

Not sure if I really know anything about any of this, but here are my thoughts:

Originally posted by gmiller1122

1. Is this normal? Is micing an acoustic always better than direct recording?

I'd say it's normal. "Always" is a strong word, but it doesn't surprise me to hear you prefer the mic to the pickup.

2. Did I waste $ on the Fishman p'up?

Well, you'll have to answer that one. As I'm sure you know, the pickup is useful for performing. I don't think (so far as I know) that the pickup is as useful for recording.

3. Should I sell my bohemoth of an amp (I don't gig anymore)

Again, your call. There's no particular reason you need the behemoth amp to record using the pickup, for that matter.

and, if so,
4. Should I buy a pre-amp, like the ART Tube Pre-amp? Will this work for vocals as well?

"Should" is pretty subjective. That said, I don't see any particular reason you need an outboard preamp. Evidently, you've managed to record using a microphone, and you like the results. Presumably this means (i) whatever you're recording with has a mic preamp in it and (ii) you like how it works so far.

That said, most people here will probably disagree with me. Outboard mic preamps are sort of the flavor of the month ... or maybe the year (the decade?). As I noted in an earlier post, there a notion loose in the world that, since people with $15,000 consoles have $5,000 outboard mic preamps, therefore people with $450 consoles need $150 outboard mic preamps. I'm not entirely convinced that the low-end preamps do a lot more for you than the preamps you probably already have ... at least not as much as putting the same money into a mic or something would.

[Chris Shaeffer]

In addition to sjj's cool post...

Some people combine the miced acoustic with the direct pickup signal when recording. I've never seen the need, but it may give you some flexibility.

If you don't need the amp, and are certain you will never need it again, go ahead and sell it. On the other hand, I nearly sold my guitar amp a few years back and am very, very glad I didn't when I needed to record a distorted guitar a short while ago.

Outboard pres are really useful if you don't have a mixer or some other pre that gives phantom power and other nice things. If you like the sound you are getting, then why bother spending more money? I didn't buy a pre until I needed one to power a pair of condensor mics. They do sound head and shoulders better than the pres on my old 4-track.

Take care,
Chris

[TexRoadkill]

If he didnt install the EQ/Preamp then how is it being preamped? Is there a battery somewhere that might need changing? I would try it through a preamp to see if that is what is needed. I have a Fishman Plus on my Larivee and it has great signal quality. It sounds as shitty as any other acoustic pickup but there are no pops or buzzes.

If you are primarily recording than dont bother with the pickup. Some people like to blend it with the mic but even a mic alone will usually sound 100x times better than a pickup.

[gmiller1122]

Thanks for the insights...

Tex: Is there a battery somewhere that might need changing? Yes! Sorry, I forgot that the guy said if it buzzed, I should change the battery. My bad!

Chris: I have 2 git amps, but for vocals and acoustic, I used the 3 channel fender amp for gigging. Right now, I don't see myself gigging anymore, but who knows in a few years? I think I'll hold onto it. I don't really need the $ that bad, I think.

Outboard pres are really useful if you don't have a mixer or some other pre that gives phantom power and other nice things.
Sounds right. I run the mic through a compressor pedal, then to the PC. I guess the pedal acts like a preamp, right? It sure sounds nice!

SSJ:
I don't think (so far as I know) that the pickup is as useful for recording.
Yeah, I'm finding that out!

I'm coming to the conclusion that I have what I need (decent git, amps, mics, software), I'm just unsure of how to get the best sound! But I'm working on it...

Thanks again!

[NYMorningstar]

I suggest you do more exprimenting with recording the acoustic through a mic. There are lots of other setups to experiment with that will give you different flavors. Try using two mics to record with, one set up at about 6" straight out from your 12th fret aimed towards the hole and the other 1 to 2 feet straight out from the hole aimed at the bridge. That has a unique sound when you mix them. If you want to have a recording sound much like you hear it when you play, mic over your shoulder. Try recording in a tight area like a walk-in closet, play into a corner. There are endless techniques to experiment with to come up with that sound you are looking for and it's not always a product of the equipment you use. Experiment and have some fun too!

[littledog]

I'm all for experimentation, but I think it would be safe to say that at least 95% of the acoustic guitar tracks you've heard on records and CDs were produced either wholly or mostly by mic'ing the instrument. And that number is probably conservative.

DI's are more for live situations. Just cause you have it, doesn't mean you have to use it. Which ain't bad advice in general.

[A1A2]

I have recorded acoustic guitar DI and miked before i got my second mike. I just add a bit of reverb on the Di signal, and blend it in right under the miked signal with a little panning. Sounds pretty good to my taste. Bigger with but still clear. just a thought

AL

[est]

ive done the mic track and di track thing before..with a bit of creative panning..have to say worked quite nicely.....

..but ive got a yamaha apx-4a (it has a very nice pickups - well to my ears.)...its a small body guitar......so micing it up produces very boxy mid-range sound.....the only way ive been able to get pass that is by adding the di track to bulk it up...


any one used an effects pedal - like the Yammi Stomp ( http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi...E00004AG+STOMP ) one of those ones that claims to make the acoustic di sound more like it has been mic'ed up??

perhaps (if this actually werks) you could go from your di straight to the fx pedal and then into your card/mixer???

...or mabye im an idiot

[gmiller1122]

Does di stand for direct input? digital input? dumbass idiot?


(While we're on abbreviations, does I/O, when referring to mixers, simply stand for input/output? There should be a glossary out there for clueless folk like me. Or maybe there is and I'm too clueless to know it!?)

Back to the subject...

I guess it all comes down to experimenting w/sound, and you all have given me some neat suggestions. Thanks!


g

[CDT-sHaG]

Does di stand for direct input? yeah


dumbass idiot? only in my case lol


(While we're on abbreviations, does I/O, when referring to mixers, simply stand for input/output? yeah

[Phildo]

Got to admit that I've never really liked the sound of DI'ed acoustics - always thought they sounded thin & ringy...however I've actually taken to DI'ing my Takamine for songwriting demos and it's actually survived through to the finished recordings.

I appreciate that's absolutely no answer, but I reckon it's a case of "horses for courses".

Our singer's got one of those Yamaha's with the internal mic as well as the piezo. Looking forward to Di'ing that out of interest...

Oh, don't sell your amp. You'll regret it.

[Chuckschwandt]

Recording acoutic guitar, and getting a great sound
is a real chore to say the least. After years of trying
many different mics, DI stuff, and processors, I found
something that helps alot - medium gage strings !!!
Dosn't sound like great wisdom, but try it
and you will see much harshness fly away. I use
light gage to perform, as most do, but they don't
record well at all - harsh, harsh, harsh.
Just string on some medium gage for recording and
you will see the difference. By all means use a mic,
not a DI method. Direct is great for the stage, but
not for recording, unless you mic with it. Use a good
large or small condensor mic too. Go through a
decent preamp. The cheap preamps have hiss, and
that messes up your clean recording.

Hope that helps a bit.
Chuck

[Richard Monroe]

I use a Taylor 700 series with a Fishman Prefix Plus, and I usually record it with a pair of Oktava MC012's, but I get a very nice blend by running a mono out from the Fishman (both on board mic and pickup blended, heavy on p/u, light on mic), through an amp, either Strawberry Blonde or POD Pro to power amp to Marshall cab, and micing that through a preamp with a dynamic mic up against the grill. The point is not to record the signal from the Fishman, which I could do from the POD to the board, but to record a real cab with a real mic to get the electric edge to a basically acoustic sound. Then I blend the accurate mic sound with colored mic sound. Incedentally, I use the same technique with a solid body, where I mix in pick noise and breathing, etc. from the Oktavas to create the sound of a human playing a guitar, rather than the sound of a computer generated signal.-Richie

[gmiller1122]

Chuck -
The local luthier said the exact same thing. After a few days of my fingers hurting, I really like the sound of the mediums. I am more prone to buzzing, b/c of the heavier gauge, but the sound is worth it. It also makes a huge difference since my git leans a bit more toward the high ends anyway.

Richie -
I'm stuck w/my AKG mics right now since I've been buying too many toys lately and my wife and I are having a baby (any day now!) and closing on our new house in a few weeks. Needless to say, I have to put a hold on any new purchases for a while. When the cash flow starts going again, one of the things I want to look at is a condenser mic...and monitors...and a new soundcard...and a mandolin...and a Les Paul...

you get the picture!!!

thanks, guys...

...and a new truck!

[Richard Monroe]

gmiller, I'm not suggesting a spending spree here. Go ahead and use AKG dynamics, I do. What I'm saying is that a piezo pickup is not going to give you the authentic acoustic sound in any configuration, it's meant to use with an amp. Because you have no on board preamp, you need one to use the pickup. Then jack the preamp out into into any amp available, be it reference (power) amp or combo, checking for appropriate impedence matching. If you use a reference amp, you need some kind of FX or modeler to provide tone color. The simpler route is to use whatever guitar amp you got and mic it with the other AKG. Then use the mic on the guitar as a reference point and mix in the mic'd cab until you like it (or not). Watch your volume, though. At a certain point, feedback will become an issue. One solution to this is to enclose the amp/cab in a carpet lined box, but I don't like that very much on acoustic. By the way, I use basically the same setup on electric guitar, mic'ing the body for pick noise, breathing, and other "human" input.-Richie

[darrin_h2000]

I paticularly like the Yamaha compass line as far a the concept of putting a condencer mic right in the middle of the sound hole. And they are really decent Acoustics.

I dont need a AG stomp though to give me the sound of a micing up an acoustic. I use mics for that.

[StevenLindsey]

I've gotten a very nice acoustic recording with this setup:

piezo undersaddle pickup ---> Presonus Blue Tube -->Behringer Ultrafex-->recorder, panned to about 3:00

LD condenser mic-->mixer preamp-->recorder, panned to about 9:00.

I leave the piezo signal a bit lower than the mic'd signal.

The panning has a great deal to do with the fullness of the sound (recorded in stereo). I like the combination of the mic'd/amped sound. Different panning positions and different mixes of the two signals can change the sound quite a bit.

I tried running a direct line out of a Crate acoustic amp and hated the sound.

[NYMorningstar]

Originally posted by darrin_h2000
I paticularly like the Yamaha compass line as far a the concept of putting a condencer mic right in the middle of the sound hole. And they are really decent Acoustics.

I'm a fan of the compass series also. I tried out about 20 of them till I found one that sounded and played as well as the $2300 Gibson they were selling. I even like the DI setup when playing live. It has a real clear top end that holds its own with the electric guitars. I'm using 13's and it sounds real full, at times just awesome. It doesn't have a pick guard but I prefer scratches over cracks caused by pick guards shrinking anyhow. They're just overall a great deal.

[darrin_h2000]

Im a finger picker, dont worry about scratches

[littledog]

Originally posted by gmiller1122
Does di stand for direct input? digital input? dumbass idiot?

g

Although it means pretty much the same thing, contrary to popular belief, D.I. is actually an abreviation for "Direct Inject", not "Direct Input".

But don't be embarassed. I'm betting 95% of the people here would get that one wrong.


By the way, here is a glossary site I just found with a quick google search. Maybe there are better ones, but this one seems to be good for basics:

http://www.bownie.com/guide/glossary/

[NYMorningstar]

Here's a couple more to throw at ya from the nerd view:
DI = Data In or Destination Index

[TexRoadkill]

I always thought it was "Da Ins" and "Da outs".