Right mic for distorted guitar amp?

[The_Raven]

Howyadoin,

First off, here's the signal chain:


Roland Stereo Chorus 120 (IIRC, not in front of it right now)
to
SM-58 about 8" away, directly between the twin speakers
to
Alesis Studio 24 XLR in, out through group A (mono)
to
Delta 1010 input

The clean sound is excellent, but when my guitarist sets his pedals on "kill" it sounds like ass. Really cheesy and thin, sounds like it's being played through a filter. I tried a Boss SE-50 effects box to bring up the bottom end and my levels went into the toilet.

Is the 58 the right tool for the job? I love them for my vocals, but I'm wondering if this is the weak link in the chain. Should I put the mic further away? Right in one of the speakers? Should I use a 57 instead? I'm picking up a condensor mic for vocals, should I try this for the guitar as well?

Any donations to the Clue Jar(tm) are appreciated!

-Mark Pags

[matty_boy]

A 58 is a 57. Just take the ball off. You should experiment with mic placement. I like to put it fairly close to the grille (2-3 inches) pointing straight in about halfway between the edge and the cone, but you may find a totally different place that suits you. Just try a bunch of places.

Matty

[octoruss]

The change to "kill" setting will definitely mean you need to chage the placement. You can't go wrong with the SM58 on amp, regardless of its setting. Just keep playing with its distance from the center cone and distance from the speaker. Without FX in the signal chain, you should be able to pick up the sound your ears are hearing with the proper placement.

[Cyrokk]

Try backing off on the gain. Too much gain can actually make a guitar sound thinner. Try a little gain reduction, and bring that 58 a little closer to the cone to compensate. Also try placing the mic on the left or right of the amp, pointing inward to the cone at a 45 degree angle.

Good luck,

Cy

[crawdad]

Mic placement on the speaker can greatly vary the tone you are getting. Center of the cone is brightest and pointing to the edge of the cone is darkest. Distance from the speaker makes a big difference too. More ambience gets recorded when you are farther away. Experiment and see where the best tone is--thats the best thing you can do. The suggestions in this thread are all good ones.

I've heard recordings with the Jazz Chorus amp where two mics were used--one on each speaker. If you are using the chorus, its a pretty nice sound. Spread the two tracks in the mix.

[saxman72]

Now I would usually mic one specific speaker and not right between them, but shoot, maybe that sounds good too. But you're not happy with the sound so something's gotta change. The mic is not the problem. Jc-120 is great for clean sounds, maybe not so great for "kill" sounds.

You say it sounds like ass. And a skinny, thin ass at that. Remember that the SM-58 is a cardioid mic designed primarily for vocals and instruments... what does that mean? They were desinged with proximity effect in mind. Designed to be used for close mic'ing. If you distance mic anything with a SM-57 or 58 the mic'ed sound will have less bottom end than the source. I personally like shoving 57's right up those asses. Makes 'em sound fatter. My usual starting point is about 3 inches off the grill.

Another thing to consider: If the guitar-amp-mic combination sounds great for the clean sounds, and sounds bad on the kill settings, then maybe the guitarist needs to work his "kill" sounds. Go to the source and fix that first. You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit.

[The_Raven]

Howyadoin,

I moved the mic to the halfway mark of the cone of one of the speakers, right up on the grill, and the tonal quality of the sound is much improved. I'm still not happy with the level though. It's odd, the level looks and sounds good on the mixer, looks and sounds good in the Delta 1010 control panel, but is about -20 lower in the Sound Forge monitor. My vocals and drums don't seem to show this problem.

Could there be a phase issue with the other speaker on the amp? I tried swapping the SM-58 for a Audio Technica DR-150, and an Audix F-10, no diff...

I'm tempted to try my brand new AT3035, am I taking a risk sticking that in front of the amp?

aaarrrggghhhh,
-Mark Pags

[saxman72]

Originally posted by The_Raven
[BI'm tempted to try my brand new AT3035, am I taking a risk sticking that in front of the amp?[/B]

No, not really... unless it's REALLY cranked. The spl rating on a mic isn't the pressure it can take before it breaks. It's the pressure it can take before the mic can't capture and recreate the sound anymore. So if you exceed the spl rating, it'll sound terrible (and even sound like the mic is broken), but that doesn't mean that you actually ruined your mic. Back off the volume and it'll continue to work fine.

Now about the level problem. I'm not sure where the problem lies, but I doubt it's the mic. It wouldn't be a phase issue either. Is there a +4/-10 switch for your soundcard (or somewhere)? I don't know...

[heinz]

>>"You can't make chicken salad out of chicken shit."<<

These profound words are very true. The typical goal is to capture the sound of "a really cranked high gain guitar that has snarl and bite but also a good thumpy low end like at that club we just played". But this doesn't always translate to recreating all the variables of the club and presto you got it. Cyrokk was dead on with his comments on gain, sometimes a lower volume and a good edge that doesn't break up can sound huge if recorded and compressed properly. One of the biggest recorded guitar sounds I've heard lately was recorded through a Pignose at 1/4 volume using just a MetalzoneII pedal + sm57 shoved right into the cloth. Double tracked, panned wide. Consider layering more direct guitars, or recording a separate direct feed during the live tracking, 1 or 2 guitars doesn't sound big anymore (assuming "kill" really means KILL). Just my opinion YMMV.