Rock music - how important are the lyrics?

[misterx]

Hey,
I've got plenty of good driving music, good vocals, but I suck at lyrics. When cranking out a good rock song, (we're talking in the style of "Fuel" or "Journey - but with an edge..") type stuff. If the music and singing was good but the lyrics were not the greatest would that mess up a songs chance at becoming popular? Thanks.

[blackmusic]

for the majority of people, it would because 90 percent of people that listen to music listen to the lyrics. For me since I'm a guitar player first, I listen for good guitar work, and since I'm a poet second I listen for well written lyrics. But in any case, just like how poorly written music can ruin well written lyrics, confusing lyrics, poorly written lyrics, or lyrics that are almost too broad can ruin a song, because the majority of people listening to the song won't know what the hell your talking about. The way I know I have well written lyrics, is when my family sings my songs at home. :-D

[cordura21]

"be-bop-a-lula she's my baby, Be-bop-a-lula I don't mean maybe"
That was pretty popular, and the lyrics sucked big time.

Anyways, in my country people love british and american rock, yet nobody understands a word about it. And they seem to like the same songs people who understand them like. You could argue that we are just following the trend, but I think it is not the case.

Cheers, Andrés

[CyanJaguar]

Originally posted by blackmusic
for the majority of people, it would because 90 percent of people that listen to music listen to the lyrics. For me since I'm a guitar player first, I listen for good guitar work, and since I'm a poet second I listen for well written lyrics. But in any case, just like how poorly written music can ruin well written lyrics, confusing lyrics, poorly written lyrics, or lyrics that are almost too broad can ruin a song, because the majority of people listening to the song won't know what the hell your talking about. The way I know I have well written lyrics, is when my family sings my songs at home. :-D

i must be on of the 10% who does not care for the lyrics. As long as you have a memorable melody, some good rhythm and nice changes, you have a great song in my book.

[nave]

I'm also in the 10% ---- lyrics are only as important as YOU want them to be.....whether you're listening to them or writing them

[Henri Devill]

What Nave said...


Don

[Badger]

Please....
Look at the lyrics to blues travelers hook, or burnging down the house by the talking heads.

Actually, these are two of my favorite songs of all time, but they are about absolutely nothing, and not only were they big hits, but people were very pasionate about them, and I would bet that most people havent a clue what the words really mean.

[charger]

Remember how popular Bush were? Millions sold of that first album. Have you ever listened to the lyrics? It's basically a rhyming dictionary. Here's the lyrics for Glycerine, which was a pretty big hit if I remember correctly.

must be your skin
that i'm sinking in
must be for real
cos now i can feel
and i didn't mind
it's not my kind
not my time
to wonder why
everything's gone white
and everything's gone grey
now you're here
now you're away
i don't want this
remember that
i'll never forget
where you're at
don't let the days go by
glycerine

i'm never alone
i'm alone all the time
are you at one
or do you lie
we live in a wheel
where everyone steals
but when we rise it's like
strawberry fields
if i treated you bad
you bruise my face
couldn't love you more
you gotta beautiful taste

don't let the days go by
could have been easier on you
i couldn't change though i wanted to
could have been easier by three
our old friend fear and you and me

i needed you more
when we wanted us less
i could not kiss just regress
it just might be
clear simple and plain
that's just fine
that's just one of my names

[CyanJaguar]

Originally posted by charger
Remember how popular Bush were? Millions sold of that first album. Have you ever listened to the lyrics? It's basically a rhyming dictionary. Here's the lyrics for Glycerine, which was a pretty big hit if I remember correctly.

must be your skin
that i'm sinking in
must be for real
cos now i can feel
and i didn't mind
it's not my kind
not my time
to wonder why
everything's gone white
and everything's gone grey
now you're here
now you're away
i don't want this
remember that
i'll never forget
where you're at
don't let the days go by
glycerine

i'm never alone
i'm alone all the time
are you at one
or do you lie
we live in a wheel
where everyone steals
but when we rise it's like
strawberry fields
if i treated you bad
you bruise my face
couldn't love you more
you gotta beautiful taste

don't let the days go by
could have been easier on you
i couldn't change though i wanted to
could have been easier by three
our old friend fear and you and me

i needed you more
when we wanted us less
i could not kiss just regress
it just might be
clear simple and plain
that's just fine
that's just one of my names

LOL. THis is the perfect example.

[Badger]

No, this is

Hook
Music & Lyrics: John Popper

It doesn't matter what I say
So long as I sing with inflection
That makes you feel that I'll convey
Some inner truth of vast reflection
But I've said nothing so far
And I can keep it up for as long as it takes
And it don't matter who you are
If I'm doing my job then it's your resolve that breaks

Because the hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook brings you back
On that you can rely

There is something amiss
I am being insincere
In fact I don't mean any of this
Still my confession draws you near
To confuse the issue I refer
To familiar heroes from long ago
No matter how much Peter loved her
What made the Pan refuse to grow

Was that the hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook brings you back
On that you can rely

Suck it in suck it in suck it in
If you're Rin Tin Tin or Anne Boleyn
Make a desperate move or else you'll win
And then begin
To see
What you're doing to me this MTV is not for free
It's so PC it's killing me
So desperately I sing to thee
Of love
Sure but also rage and hate and pain and fear of self
And I can't keep these feelings on the shelf
I've tried well no in fact I lied
Could be financial suicide but I've got too much pride inside
To hide or slide
I'll do as I'll decide and let it ride until I've died
And only then shall I abide this tide
Of catchy little tunes
Of hip three minute ditties
I wanna bust all your balloons
I wanna burn all of your cities
To the ground I've found
I will not mess around
Unless I play then hey
I will go on all day hear what I say
I have a prayer to pray
That's really all this was
And when I'm feeling stuck and need a buck
I don't rely on luck because...

The hook brings you back
I ain't tellin' you no lie
The hook...
On that you can rely

[charger]

I really don' t think "The Hook" by Blues Traveler fits the mold. Read those lyrics again; they are saying something very profound and intelligent about the emptiness of pop music. And they do matter; in fact, they are crucial to the meaning of the song. They also threw the lyrics over a "hook" of immense magnitude; it's Pachelbel's Canon in D.

That this song was so wildly popular is probably one of the most ironic moments in pop music history.

[Badger]

Originally posted by charger
I really don' t think "The Hook" by Blues Traveler fits the mold. Read those lyrics again; they are saying something very profound and intelligent about the emptiness of pop music. And they do matter; in fact, they are crucial to the meaning of the song. They also threw the lyrics over a "hook" of immense magnitude; it's Pachelbel's Canon in D.

That this song was so wildly popular is probably one of the most ironic moments in pop music history.

Thats my point. Most people who like the song, don't realize the song is making fun of them for likeing a song without knowing what it is about.

[esactun]

Originally posted by cordura21
"be-bop-a-lula she's my baby, Be-bop-a-lula I don't mean maybe"
That was pretty popular, and the lyrics sucked big time.

And the Papa-Oo-Mow-Mow (Dit Dit Dit!). And pretty much everything by Def Leppard!

"Glycerine" is a fun example. At one glance, it's totally empty and crappy. On another level, everything just misses connecting enough that one could be duped into thinking there's something deep there, and then look at one's own life for the song's meaning, and because the lyrics are so vague and meaningless (but "sung" with feeling) the person can invent a meaning. Next thing you know, they're out drinking and telling everyone just how deep Bush is, and everyone thinks they're either an idiot or talking about some prostitute.

I like lyrics, but the song is what gets a person first. If the song sucks but the lyrics rock, the lyrics never get heard. If the lyrics suck but the music rocks (FFFFoolin'....) it will get by, though I'll still rag on it . If BOTH are slammin', then, well, you're slammin'! Hard to find that on the radio, though...

[joro]

In my opinion..............
I think.............
in my mind..............
I see......................
from my point of view................
with an alternate perspective...............
concerning this issue.................
that I have come to the conclusion.............
that yes.......................and...................no...........
would be the correct answer.............



Gee..............
I sure do wish that I had more than two choices....ya know?

[theron]

Gee.............. (joro quote)
what rhymes with Gee?
I'm so stumped. Does it matter?











How do I get this "quote"thing to work so I can sound witty, internet adept and jocular?

Theron.

[misterx]

Excellent feedback people. I appreciate it. I'm also in that "10%" crowd that first has to feel a good pulse to the music. (rock music that is) The lyrics are always the last thing I think of when I first "get into" a song. After all I was raised on Rush, and their lyrics were/are very cerebral. I never knew (at first) what the hell they were singing about, but the music always sounded great. So I'm sticking with the overall thinking that, the music has to "drive" the listener, but the lyrics can take a back seat if they have to. That doesn't mean I won't try to write good lyrics, just I see no reason to not release new material because the lyrics may not be that powerful. groovy...

[VSpaceBoy]

Well, I agree with what everyone said, but understand that there isn't one rule.

You have to decide who your wanting to enjoy your song. You can't make everyone happy. If your trying simply to make a song that YOU think rocks, then chances are that other ppl like you <and me> will agree. If your wanting to tell or teach, then you'll get another crowd. If your trying to make a song that apeals to everyone, then you have to call on all the senses. Music for you and me and lyrics for he and she!

People do listen to the lyrics, and music, but not like your thinking they do. In rock music ppl <non musicians> seem to generally listen for a catchy riff, and a few words that mean something to them. The lyrics on paper could be stupid all day, but if you have a cheezy one liner chorus like.. "Yea... and I slammed closed the DOOOR..!" That means SO many different things to so many ppl, chances are more ppl than not can relate. Who cares that in the rest of the song you were just talking about keeping your cat from rubbing against your legs over and again while you were trying to watch TV.

Lastly, remember that most of the advise here is coming from fellow musicians who <including myself> do listen to the music more than the lyrics, so you should ask some of the ppl who you want to hear and enjoy your song!!

Just my three cents,

Space

[Aaron Cheney]

I think you guys are all nuts! Or at least mostly nuts.
Yes, the beat is what attratcts you first. The vibe of the song. The groove is just like a physical attraction between two people.
But if there's not some kind of substance, it means nothing. We hear great grooves on TV commercials every single day that we instantly forget. But substance makes a song memorable. Substance can be great playing, or great songwriting, or great lyrics.
Now, speaking only of lyrics, I think they're incredibly important. Do they have to be deep? No. Do they have to address some great social issue? No. They don't have to be anything in particular, or follow any kind of agenda except one:

THEY HAVE TO BE CLEVER

Clever rhymes, clever meter, a glib turn of phrase, or a great metaphor are REQUIRED. Songs with lyrics that mean absolutely nothing can still have clever rhymes or meter and be interesting. Songs that use tired rhymes (like "fire" with "desire", i.e...... yawn ) better have some other kind of substance or they will fall flat.

Take SRV for example: Great songwriter? No. Good lyrics? No. Awesome guitarist. There's his substance.

On the other hand take the Beatles: Great songwriters? Yes. Great lyrics? Yes. Substance aplenty. Do all their lyrics make sense? No. (Iam the eggman... I am the eggman.... Iam the walrus...goo goo gajoob). But their lyrics are absolutley, brilliantly interesting.

I admit that when it comes to lyrics I usually find myself in the minority. That's OK. To quote Invictus...." My head is bloody, but unbowed"

Aaron
Voodoo Vibe Productions
http://www.voodoovibe.com

[Wong]

Well to me both lyrics and music are equally important. It also depends on the listener, I guess. Ex: If a person's into stuff by Dylan or Jim Morrisson I'm sure they'll say it's the lyrics that matters. Whereas for alot of great rock tunes, I doubt that a person could catch all the lyrics on the first listen. In this case, the good vibe of the music and melody sticks in your brain first.

[jitteringjim]

IMHO:

On the first few listens, lyrics mean nothing - except for a hook or phrase to keep the listener interested.

However, after the initial "Hey! this is a cool tune!" the music listener will start to decypher the lyrics (with repeated play, if you're lucky.) Then, IMO - that's when lyrics count. If they generally suck, you're not going to keep the interest for much longer.

Example: I really dig Peter Frampton's old stuff. The "Frampton" studio album in particular. Great music and performance. What kills it for me though are the lyrics. Too many songs that mean absolutely nothing. Half of the album is a study in finding a rhyme that works into the musical phrasing. For this reason, though I give it a listen on occasion, it doesn't stay in my CD player 24/7.

Someone like Nick Lowe on the other hand, with excellent lyrics & maybe marginal "Rocking Out" rating - does stay in my CD player.

Most in this forum are songwriters though, and don't view things from the mass perspective. I guess it depends on what you want.

Personally, I want my tunes to stand scrutiny on all levels - but it's still always going to be subjective.

Here are some reviews of a tune I have posted on the net:

Great song.

I like the melody and background music, but i'm sorry, i didn't like the lyrics. It was just kind of awkward.

lyrics are kinda weird.The song was pretty decent; it seems to take a long time to get anywhere. I like the chorus.

It was a nice melody but there wasn't a chorus, really. You've got something here but it needs to be developed.

Wow, I'm impressed. Great heartfelt song, awesome guitar skills, a real 'song', not just noise. Could use some distortion and better drums, but it's great. I love the vocals too.

Uninteresting two chord song with no hooks, monotone vocals, and obscure nonsensical lyrics. Needs a total re-write (at least).

If this is your bag and you're feeling this way, you might love it. If you're looking for instant pop bubblegum, you've come to the wrong address.

OK. Now, I listed these "reviews" not to further my own agenda, but to underscore the importance of lyrics and the subjective nature of lyrical content.

So anyway, my rule of thumb is:
If the song makes sense to me, or means something to me - then it'll mean something to someone else.

[nave]

There are tons of discs in my collection that I've listened to hundreds and hundreds of times and I still don't know the lyrics...Not because they are indeciferable but just because I really don't care what some jack ass with a guitar (like myself..he..he.) has to say about anything......except for ofcourse, Dylan and a few other exceptions that is my general rule. If I wanted good verbal jive I'd read a newspaper or a book....If I want rock music then that's what I want. I think that the majority of rock music and some of the greatest rock music has survived on sub-par lyrics. My general rule when writing my own songs....is that I don't need great lyrics....I could careless about great lyrics....what I do want is lyrics that don't totally suck...and given how words intrisically fit themselves into music it ain't that hard to come up with lyrics that don't suck....they won't be great...but not being totally laughable is the key...although, like I said, the majority of rock history has survived on laughable lyrics.

[Even]

Lyrics... music.... being popular. I guess it has a heap to do with the intent or the genre. I mean "pop" is just that, quick and quirky sing along tunes that scale the charts and die soon. But peppy flowing words are a must for that. Then theres the political dissention stuff that demands strong lyrics but ends up only semi popular. Theres a huge difference from music written For musicians and music written for the population. Groups like Dream Theater or Rush that thrill the musician dont ever get a lot of whole album radio play.

Personally I think a piece of music is art. and like any other art it is interpretive. If it says what you intended..... good enough. If others gain, better still.

As far as popular goes....... did it get you paid or get you laid? I need ask no more.

[crawdad]

It all depends. Gimme Shelter by the Stones is one of my all time fav rock songs, but I couldn't tell you what half the lyrics are. Tangled Up In Blue by Dylan has some pretty involved lyrics. I know every word, yet the meanings change every time I hear it. I like hearing Green Day's Time of Your Life or whatever its titled, but those lyrics are cryptic. When I was writing in Nashville, every word counted and clarity and craft were premiums. What was Come Together? I just liked the sound of the words, abstract as they were. Was it genius or stream of consciousness?

I do prefer intelligent, well written lyrics over meaningless rhyming anyday, but thats just what I value. Mix those with a great melody and a strong hook and chances are you have something pretty damn good.

be bob a lu la aside, I have always thought that Chuck Berry was an incredible lyricist. He painted pictures, told stories and created believeable visions in his songs. Nothin' wrong with that...