Power Issue

[Velvet Elvis]

John (and others)...

My studio control room is currently residing in a room on the second floor of my house... Its an old bed room in an old house (built 1920) but it had a decent size and had a sloped ceiling (which helps with not having to modify a ton of things to deaden the room).

However, I've been having issues with buzz when recording guitar and bass tracks.

All the power comes from the same circuit and the guitars are being run direct (through various processors).

They loudness of the buzz and the pitch of the buzz seems to change as I move the guitar around (seems as though its an electromagnetic field that's causing the issue)... but I can't seem to get the buzz to go completely away.

Any ideas?

Thanks.
Velvet Elvis

[Eric Best]

Elvis, are you using a computer? In the past I've had trouble with interactions with my computer monitors and my guitars.

[Velvet Elvis]

Eric,

Good question... no I'm using an ADAT setup with a Mackie mixer.

I *do* have computers in the room, but I can have both computers off... both monitors off... ALL the lights off (which are not on dimmers etc) and it makes no difference. The buzz seems to be from something else.

Thanks,
Velvet Elvis

[Eric Best]

You need someone better educated than me to help you. Maybe a power conditioner? Those are my two best guesses, I'm sure others can do better.

[Darryl]

I am wondering if it is grounding problem possibly at the breaker panel? I know that I have run into this problem working with different guitars/amps and locations.
just a thought.

[frederic]

Originally posted by Darryl
I am wondering if it is grounding problem possibly at the breaker panel? I know that I have run into this problem working with different guitars/amps and locations.
just a thought.

Buzzing could be from a lot of things, but here are the most common:

1. Computers in the studio near the guitar
2. Faulty ground wiring (electrical power)
3. Faulty power supplies on mixers, amps, computers,
outboards, etc.
4. Dying WALL WARTS. (Don't laugh, I had one do this
to me and it was most annoying since it worked, it
must be good, right?)
5. Flourescent lights, dimmers, appliances, fridges,
washing machines, drills, etc.
6. neighbor with a CD, ham radio, or even a cordless phone
depending on the frequency.

and my favorite....

7. BAD GROUND IN THE GUITAR ITSELF!!!

[Velvet Elvis]

Thanks for the posts guys... I don't think its the guitar, but it is very likely a bad ground in the house... as I said its old... maybe its time to bite the bullet and drop a new line from the breaker box to the control room...

Problem is, its an old plaster and lath house, with the room on the second floor... Not sure how easily I can get power to it.

Velvet Elvis

[frederic]

Originally posted by Velvet Elvis
Thanks for the posts guys... I don't think its the guitar, but it is very likely a bad ground in the house... as I said its old... maybe its time to bite the bullet and drop a new line from the breaker box to the control room...

Problem is, its an old plaster and lath house, with the room on the second floor... Not sure how easily I can get power to it.

Velvet Elvis

The easiest way to check for bad wiring is to use a 10 dollar or less fault detector - its a rubberized thing with a three prong plug built in with several LEDs. Anything red or yellow lights up and you have wiring issues.

My house has major wiring issues - whoever wired it in the 50's decided ground wires weren't necessary and cut them all as the wires entered the fusebox. Since my house is the old style wiring, neutral and ground is the same (two wires coming in, 120V only). I ran new lines to the studio, of course, and connected grounds and all that, so when I finish upgrading this electrical box monstrosity, I'll be grounded appropriately.

I suggested the guitar ground issue only because in my buddy's studio, we spent about 30 man-hours trying to figure it out. Turned out the wire that connects to the underside of the tremelo just "fell off". Didn't mean to imply its definately it. Just yet another thing to check.

I have three circuits going into my studio - one for any and all lighting and peripheral outlets for things like window air conditioners, Mr. Coffee, my plug-in micro cooler, that sorta stuff. the second circuit is for anything thats a computer (two monitors, two computers, my laptop docking station, my 10/100 switch, and my 8-port KVM) and the third and final circuit is for anything thats audio.

[Velvet Elvis]

frederic...

yeah... that sounds like a cool setup. My house too has the old wiring system (most rooms are still knob and tube wiring).

Its a shared circuit and I could possibly be picking up noise from elsewhere in the house too... I probably just need to drop a new properly grounded circuit or two to this room.... wonder how much that will set me back.


Velvet Elvis

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Hi, I had buzz issues that were real bad. Of course, I was using a strat, which normally
will buzz to a certain extent anyway,(single coil pickups) but this was BAD. I had even installed a 60 amp subpanel with its own ground rod, for studio only, with HUBBLE isolated ground outlets only, wired in a star system for audio. Tried everything. Ended up, unplugging everything, then replugging the relative electronics in one at a time untill I found it. Turns out, I have three direct box's,(cheap) that were the culprit Seems, on the cheap ones, the 1/4" phone jacks are standard ground casing connecting physically to the di chassi. Problem comes from the XLR after the transformer. The ground at the XLR jack is isolated. Soldered a wire from the XLR ground pin to the actual chassi ground pin and wala! No Buzz. Some of the more expensive DI's have a ground lift switch. The cheaper ones seam to be wired with the gound lifed by ommitting this connection. This maynot be your problem, but this solved mine. Grounding in a studio, is the grandma of buzz. HVAC is the grandaddy
of noise entering the studio. They are both hard to make perfect. I am now working on a unit(designed by a friend who is an electrical engineer,) that is a massive toroidial
transformer wired for 120 in, and 120 out, but filters all the dirt. I'm not into electrical
stuff, even though I can hard wire 3 phase shops, so I'm leaving this one to him! Hope you find the BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ. Good luck.
fitz

[Velvet Elvis]

Thanks Rick...

I'm thinking I might do exactly as you did... power it all down and bring it up one at a time to see what adds to the buzz.

Maybe I will run a big honkin' extension cord down to my shop outlet Its a new grounded circuit. (although I'd have to have a beefy extension cord to keep it from burning up).

Velvet Elvis

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Yeay!, glad to hear I'm not the only one who has a shop with big honkin extention cords all over the place. Out you damn cordballs!!! Spent a month designing my console to eleminate every cordball I could imagine. Didn't work. As soon as I sit at the console, plug in my guitar(I have 4 Hi-Z inputs under the armrest, and 4 headphone outputs) put the guitarstrap on, then the headphones on, and my best friend does the same thing, we immedietly have a cordball on the floor. AHGRRRRRRR!!!!!! Can't even get out of the console chair to do anything, I'm completely wrapped in a medusas nightmare. And when I finally manage to get everything off, invariably, theres a cord around my foot-wala, a spilled beer or something. My studio is for fun only, but this shit has got to STOP!!! Time for cordless inputs and headphones. Do I hear a yea!? on that one? I don't even f____king care if there is RF!! Come on all you cord hating, plug breaking, beer spillin cordball burning studio rats, lets UNITE against this most henous creature that lurks in every dark crevice of the studio. Those slithering, black, coiled snakes and industry plots known as cords, and rid this world of this... this...thing that plauges the studios of the WORLD!!!! Unt ve habbent gottnt unst slightnesst ideast howest to go aboutest, mien FUROR-- VE VILL UNITE UNST STUDIOSS OFS THE VWORLD!!!.... opps...got carried away there. Sorry about that. My friend and I have something against cordballs......VE HATE DEM!!!! Now, where was I,... oh, yea, ahh, whats this cord on the floor? AAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..................
fitz yea, yea, everyone is a fucking comeian on this bbs!

[Velvet Elvis]

Actually Rick... other than possibly trying this extension cord for the power (just to see if it helps to have a known proper circuit), my studio is pretty clean... I have the typical guitar cords and such to the patch bay when I am recording with it, but otherwise everything is on multipin cables nicely placed behind the board and racks.

Velvet Elvis

[RICK FITZPATRICK]

Actually Velvet Elvis, so is mine, I just don't like any cords on the floor. Thats all.
fitz

[John Sayers]

Guitar Buzz!!! - we have a problem with buzzing guitars in our area and we solve it by attaching a wire to the bridge and taping the other end to the guitarist's body with gaffa tape. Alternatively we solder the other end to a blank circuit board and the player puts his bare foot on it when playing

It works!!

cheers
john

[knightfly]

Wiring of the type you describe is one of the best transmitting antennas for 60 hZ you can get. The wires are so far apart compared to Romex that it's impossible to get away from the hum pickup. If you're running ANY wires on the floor, odds are you are running parallel to the "knob and tube" antenna under the floor. Even if you run an extension cord (12 gauge, at least) up from the one properly grounded outlet you mention, you still have that big antenna in the floor radiating hum to your audio. You might be able to "map out" where the hum is worst, by using a single coil guitar pickup or a head demagnetizer as a "sniffer", wired into a small portable BATTERY powered guitar amp. Run the "sniffer coil" along the floor and walls, doing a grid-type sweep over every 3-4 inches, until you find the loudest and quietest areas of each wall and floor. If you map it carefully, you can tell which way the AC wires run. easier if any part of the wiring is open to view. Using an engineering pad with 1/4" grid lines will make it easier to map - pick a scale that will show the whole room on one sheet, and plot the hum response accordingly. (remember the inverse square law - keep the pickup the same distance from the floor at all times, maybe by putting a plastic ziplock bag over it so you can gently drag it on the surface. ) Once you have a "map", stay as far away from the loud places with your audio wires as you can get, and run audio perpendicular to the AC wires (the ones embedded in walls, as well as ones you run to your gear.)

The real and painful solution is to hire an electrician and get the whole house re-done to modern code, including DISABLING the old wiring, being sure to have enough separate circuits so feeds can be separated, as mentioned in one of the earlier posts. I wish there were an easier/cheaper way, but if there is I haven't heard of one. Hope this helps... Steve

[DJTonyMOMO]

Well Velvet it really sounds like a grounding problem. Maybe the one outlet that you are using isnt grounded Properly. Now the house being as old as it is. Its very likely thats the problem. Check it out. Good Luck

[Velvet Elvis]

Well... with Saturday pretty much rendered useless from the hum, I chatted with some electrician and sound reinforcement friends of mine this weekend.

One of them said that I could put in a 120/60 Isolations Transformer to cleanup the electrical input coming into the studio room.

Have any of you tried this ?

Steve - what you are saying does make sense, except for the fact that I have tried completely shutting down those particular circuits (IE - shut down most breakers except ones that were new and up to code)... the issues was not as severe (that's how we worked Sunday), but it still existed.

If I crank my board up all the way, I can hear a 60 cycle in the background... hmmmmm.

Velvet Elvis

[c7sus]

You're still gonna need a grounded circuit to supply the power conditioner........

Have your bathroom outlets been upgraded to Ground Fault Circuit Interupting? If so you have a circuit with a ground available there. If your bath outlets aren't GFCI it's a very good idea to upgrade them at the same time you do any other upgrades.

[darrin_h2000]

Before You gut the entire house. Do you have single coil pickups on the guitar. or do you have Floresent lighting?

By the way do not wire your power to the GFCI in your bathroom if you use Hard disc because that sucker can go and trip on you and screw up things cosiderably.

[c7sus]

With proper use a GFCI will only trip when detecting a ground-fault. That is when your current goes directly to ground! Mind you, some units trip at 25mA or less to ground........... If that becomes a concern you could always opt for a UPS backup power system, and you would get power conditioning to boot.

[frederic]

Originally posted by Velvet Elvis
frederic...

yeah... that sounds like a cool setup. My house too has the old wiring system (most rooms are still knob and tube wiring).

Its a shared circuit and I could possibly be picking up noise from elsewhere in the house too... I probably just need to drop a new properly grounded circuit or two to this room.... wonder how much that will set me back.


Velvet Elvis

If you're handy and comfortable with electricity, it will set you back very little. There is nothing magical about electricity as long as black is hot, white is neutral, and green is ground everywhere

The three circuits I ran into my studio originated from a breaker box three floors down, all the way on the farthest point of the house as compared to the studio. Total cost of bringing the circuits in (with no labor costs) was about 100 dollars. While each of the three circuits have a 120V 20A breaker on them, the wiring in between was sized to be able to carry 60A each. I did this to allow for power upgrades with a mere breaker change in the fusebox, which I can't do until the power company upgrades their lines to me. Right now I have 100A servicing coming into the house FOR THE ENTIRE HOUSE, though I have a 400A breaker box loaded and ready to go. Just have to nudge the power company some more.

If you can afford a UPS system for your studio, don't hesitate buying one properly sized for your equipment. Aside from providing battery backup when the power goes poof the nicer units also FILTER out noise, hum, spikes and other irregularities which make a huge difference in the quality of the sound in your recording gear.

Another thing to consider (which I just realized over the weekend), is if the hum is not being recorded, but heard, its probably in your power amp stages. I had that problem a few years ago and it was a power supply in my main monitoring amp. The hum drove me nuts, but at least it wasn't recorded onto any medium.

Hope that helps.

[frederic]

Originally posted by RICK FITZPATRICK
Actually Velvet Elvis, so is mine, I just don't like any cords on the floor. Thats all.
fitz

Im totally with you in this regard. My goal is to have zero wiring on the floor or the ceiling, and have it all buried in the walls (or cable troughs). I have a friend who has an awesome studio as far as gear and acoustics, however the floor is a disaster. I'm not sure whether he has cabling or pythons on the floor anymore.

Its amazing how people can actually be effective in such a mess.

[Velvet Elvis]

Guys,

I do indeed have NEW GFI circuits in my kitchen and my bathroom... however, I've found the GFI circuits actually ADD noise to the signal. Disabling those circuits at the breaker box, and connecting the studio to a different (grounded of course) circuit yielded the least amount of noise, but there was still noise to be heard.

I am plugged into a grounded outlet.

I've tried both double and single coil pickups... not much difference.

I've tried "hum busters" to no avail.

The power amp to the recording board is not the cause of the issue. I can hear the same hum on headphones with the power amp unplugged completely.

Not really sure WHAT the problem is... but it sure is annoying. And its making it hard to get a project done for our record company.

YIKES!

Velvet Elvis

[c7sus]

I would check your ground at the service then to insure that it is properly connected and that the ground rod hasn't broken down over the years.