How do I avoid phasing

[sae]

Hey guys:
I am going to record a hardcore band soon. I am going to use four mics. two overheads, one kick and one snare. How do I make sure that my overheads are in "phase".

I am recording these using a mackie 1202 and using the individual line outs for the first four tracks into two sound cards in my pc running n-track.

Again for my question

How do I make sure my mics are in phase?

[Tom Hicks]

Your mics are probably wired correctly and are already in phase.I think you are referring to mic placement.The more mics you use,they are all going to be capturing various drum sounds at slightly different times.For example the kick mic gets the kick signal,but the snare also bleeds in a little bit (or a lot!).Yet the snare mic has already captured the snare sound milliseconds earlier.This same sound arriving at different mics at different times gives rise to phase issues.
There are several ways to deal with this.Here is a simple idea based upon your plan to use two overheads,kick and snare.Gate the snare and kick mics so that the only time they are open is when a signal is present.Measure from the snare to the capsules of your overheads so that they are the same distance,which will reduce phaseing and put the stereo image in the center.A wide placement of the overheads will produce a kit whos image is wider than in real life but is more in line with the 3:1 rule.

[wes480]

tom - is gating after the recording has gone to tape/disk acceptable?

[sae]

I have heard about the 3:1 rule...what is it?

[sae]

I am going to use two c1000's for the overheads. Will these mics work in the x-y pattern? I ask this becuase they are not directional....???

If I decide to have one mic on each side of the kit, I need to make sure that they are equidistant from the snare right?

[Tom Hicks]

Yes you can gate with software.Set the controls so that only the primary sound triggers the gate to open.

3:1 rule- http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_htm/tips/mictip6.htm
This is what I mean about separating the overheads wider than what would produce an accurate image of the kit.The tradeoff is a wider then normal image to avoid the "swirly" phase sounds.

About the C1000,maybe not the best choice for overheads.Consider gettting a pair of ECM8000s for $70 instead.

Measuring from the snare up to the two overheads will center the image properly.

[sae]

Would this be a good idea on how to set up my drums? Or would you recommend putting the mics behind the drummer?

[Tom Hicks]

This is a kind of cool debate.Do you want the sound to appear as if its coming from the drummer's perspective or the audience?No hard and fast rules here.I mic from the drummer's perspective behind the kit personally.

[sae]

Doesn't matter to me really
Couldn't i just change the left and right channels later if I wanted a different perspective?

[Tom Hicks]

You could make him a lefty or righty that way.The placement of mics either in front or in back is more subtle.Most folks won't hear the difference anyway.

[sae]

sounds good.

Do you think this would work with minimal phasing problems?

[Tom Hicks]

Sure,give her a shot and post a clip.Here is a clip of my band using 4 mics on the drums.Its sure not metal!But you can hear the drums.I used a pair of ecm8000s as overheads,with an SM57 on the snare and a V67 on kick.

[sae]

SOUNDS GOOD!!!!!!

Very nice production, sounds very polished


I really like the drum sound. Where did you have your mics located? You where saying behind. Could you draw me a diagram?

[Tom Hicks]

sae
I must say how impressed I am with your great diagram.Unfortunately,I am not computer savvy enough to produce such a nice image myself!Let me try to describe the mic positions instead.
First, the kick.I used a Marshall MXL V67B large diaphragm condensor on a boom.I don't like the clicky sound you get from recording inside the drum right on the spot where the beater hits.So I made a tent or tunnel out from the bass drum using a blanket and a kitchen chair,out about 3-4 feet away from the bass.This accomplished two things.In my opinion the distance lets the sound "bloom" because of the long wavelength of the bass and it just sounds fuller to me.Then also the blanket aids in isolation of that mic from the rest of the kit.
The snare mic was an Shure SM57 dynamic,positioned on the hihat side of the snare,about 3" up and out from the rim,angled back down into the drumhead center.Point it at the drummer's crotch to let his body help the isolation.
The overheads were a pair of Behringer ECM8000s.Mic #1 was directly over the snare center at a distance of about 30".Mic #2 was also about 30" from the snare and pointed directly at it,in the vacinity of the floor tom.Picture this ,as mic #1 is one height and the other overhead is LOWER down to make the equidistant thing measure right.So it looks kinda funny,but the balance of the sound is very good this way between the cymbals and the skins.
The overheads will give you 90% of the sound you want,with the spot mics on kick and snare just added in for punch to suit.

[sae]

I don't want my bass to sound so loose (with it being a hardcore band and all) but the rest of the ideas sound good. I think I might employ your method

[Tom Hicks]

Good luck sae.
I'll look foreward to checking out your band when you post some results.
regards
Tom

[sae]

look 4 beginning of june!

[sae]

sorry this reply took so long...been moving and my dsl isn't hooked up yet so I am on dial up :P

Is this picture kinda how you recorded yours? This is how I picture it

[Tom Hicks]

Excellant pic!I did it pretty much as you have noted,except I violated the 3:1 rule by having the overheads closer to each other than that guideline would suggest.I think it was the careful measuring of the overheads that kept phase problems at bay.My next time I record drums I play to try a much wider placement to see how that effects the stereo image.

[sae]

I wasn't planning on following the 3:1 rule
as long as the overheads are same distance from the snare.

We will be recording in 3 weeks and anticipation is building.

[Tom Hicks]

Good luck,sae.
Hope you have a good session.