HUGE question: How do you tie in the verse to the chorus

[CyanJaguar]

hi guys,

I find that that chorus makes or breaks a song. I usually find it easier to come up with a chorus.

My question is this:

how do I write a verse melody that meshes with the chorus. how do you guys do it if you already have your phat melodic chorus
?

[WEBCYAN]

if the first note of your chorus is F# have the last note of your verse be E. If the first note of the chorus is C have the last note of your verse be A#....you get the idea. see the pattern.

thats an easy formula but lacks any real creativity. experiment.

[Cal D]

I don't think you can really rely on a formula. My best transition that have occured between verses, bridges and choruses have been somewhat adlibed.


I'd argue that it's mot a formula but a feel. You may want to try writing your verse first. I find that when writing a verse, it invariably leads to a bridge (only because you get tired of playing the verse) and then the bridge should lead to a explosive or, at least interesting chorus.

Good luck. If you want to hear some excellent verse to bridge to chorus writing, Billy Joel is one of the better ones. If your bridge is just as good as the rest of the song, you know you've done a good job.

[nave]

What webcyan was trying to say is about the tension that is created between the leading tone and the tonic of any scale......Obviously web plays everything in minor keys or penatonic scales, since the examples he gave you were whole steps between the leading tone and tonic........


Anyway, there could be something to that theory.....but not just for verse into chorus.....According to music theory, the examples he gave do create tension, but they could be used anywhere in the song..........*Note* In a major key they would be half steps and not whole steps....


Ofcourse there is no formula......As for me....I almost always write the verse first...dunno why that is....maybe I'm just a verse kind of guy .........The way I look at it is that the verse is the meat of the song and if you don't have that then you don't have anything......And like the other person in this thread said....the verses always seem to be leading to something....perhaps a bridge or a chorus....but they always lead somewhere.....For me, I think that the best songs have memorable melodies in the verse, even more so then the chorus.......



I've also noticed that when I repeat the first line of the verse as the last line of the verse (right before a chorus) that it seems to increase the tension, making for a greater impact when the chorus comes in....


Ofcourse, all this shit, is entirely subjective and extremely obscure........I would pay attention to the songs that are in your CD player and see what they are doing....Good luck



- nave

[djelf]

maybe webcyan is writing in major but stepping outside to add tension, maybe he writes in mixo or dorian, minor and pentatonic arenot the only scales with a whole step there. and using notes outside of the mode or formula is maybe just as good a way of comingupwith something interesting as following a pattern. of course, then that can become a pattern. which is what music consists largely of, eh, pattern and novelty?

these are probably all good tips. just try different things, including not getting frustrated. there are lots of books on melody and harmony. you could also try playing the chorus vocal melody on your instrument, and see if it seems to lead out of the chorus to a new (verse) melody, or feel where the chords pull.

i am not a great songwriter.

does anyone know, for example, did lennonandmccartney write some of those complex progressions (i.e. strawberry fields) by following the melody or what? they seem so natural, yet they use some pretty uncommon chords for rock...

[djelf]

a bridge can also build up nicely to that "phat" chorus!

[WEBCYAN]

phat? go away...

try this: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~d...rds/chords.htm

very helpful.

nave's right. i mostly write minor key stuff. major key songwriting is gay.

[djelf]

OHYEAHWELLMINORKEYSAREJUSTFORMOPINGEEDIOTSLACKEWE

[crawdad]

Here is my take. Before you even think about the melody or chord changes, the lyric of the verse should be setting up the chorus. The chorus answers the verse in some way. Another way of putting it is this: the verse should end in a somewhat unresolved way that the chorus pleasantly resolves (logically speaking, not subject wise). Also, don't use your title in the verse. Reserve it for the chorus. Otherwise, it gets watered down.

Once you have that working, the chorus ought to have a musical feeling of going up a notch from the verse. It should rise. There are a million ways to do it, but no pat formula. Anyway, it should be different from the verse, taking the song musically to a higher level--someplace different. If your verse is in the key of C and ends on the C, start the chorus in F, G, Am, E, etc. Something sonically different.

[Chris Shaeffer]

To follow up on what Crawdad just said, don't forget your other instruments, too.

If you have a verse and a chorus that start on the same chord, try having the bass do something different. Have bass underpinnings of the verse and the chorus too similar can make really make a song dull.

Drum fills? Off rythm elements? Percussion changes?

I definately like to take the intensity of the song up a notch or two during the chorus. I'll add a bunch of harmony vocals and such. I like it when the chorus answers the verse in some way, as Crawdad mentioned. Lyrically, that seems like the best tool to tie the song together.

I also use bridges a lot- especially when my chorus have different words. That way the bridge becomes the glue that holds the song together.

Good thread.
Chris

[Fangar]

Originally posted by WEBCYAN
phat? go away...

try this: http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~d...rds/chords.htm

very helpful.

nave's right. i mostly write minor key stuff. major key songwriting is gay.

An we are all still waiting to hear one.

Fangar