Hierarchy Theory

[Special K]

Opinions wanted on the "hierarchy theory" in sound production and reproduction

The hirearchy theory states that the source of the sound is the most important component to get right...i.e If I was listening to a CD on my home stereo, the most important component of my system would be the CD player, followed by the amplifier, and least important component, the speakers.

Conversly, the instrument is the most important piece of equipment in a recording environment, followed by the mic, follwed by the recording medium, followed by the program effecting it, etc...

The argument being that if there is even a minute change in the quality of sound at the source (the CD player), then once this signal is processed through ALL the components, the porblem will be magnified enormously, therefore adversly effecting the qulaity of the sound.

I agree to some extent, but I think that there are a lot of variables that need to be considered before buying a $6000 CD player to run a $400 and $200 speakers (as my lead singer is considering doing). Room size, accoustics, CD quality etc are very important.

If I was buying a component system, I would first look at the quality of the amp, followed by the quality of the speakers, and lastly the quality of the source (CD player). My argument is that the scope in quality between a good set of speakers and a crap set and a good amp and a bad amp is greater than the scope of a good CD player vs a crap CD player (would a CD player be considered good if it didn't have flashing lights, operated at 24 bit , and was made by a 'classy English brand who focus solely on the sound, not the customer gimmicks such as an opening tray for the CD!).

A hierarchy theorist would swear by buying first the CD player, then the amp, then the speakers.

The problem with the theory is that one assumes the source (the CD itself) is of good quality. If the engineer used poor quality mics, then the recording would be poor to begin with...but that is a different topic altogether.

K

[drstawl]

>the most important component of my system would be the CD player, followed by the amplifier, and least important component, the speakers.

Since this is wrong (speakers would be the most important component in that chain) I tend to think there is something that you left out in your description of this theory.

But then- what is "most important"?

What is "is"?

My off-the-cuff attempt at defining what is "most important" in a component of a sound chain is how detrimental the exchange of top-of-the-line components with cheap replacements would be for the chain as a whole. More important components cannot be replaced as easily as less important components.

[Special K]

the chain:

CD player > amp > speakers

hierachy theorists say that the CD player is the most important thing

anti-hierachy theorists say that the speakers are the most important thing

The reality is though, that your system is as strong as its weakest link.

But, a mediocre stand-alone CD unit will power an awesome amp and speakers, and provide the listener with a fantastic sound.

An awesome CD player powering a crap amp and some computer speakers will still provide a crap sound.

A crap CD player with a good amp and awesome speakers will provide a very good sound.

I do agree with the hierachy theory, but in reality one needs to consider all variations and combinations within your system to get the best sound for your buck.

K

[crawdad]

I believe in the "whole chain" theory. A bad source will still sound bad through great speakers. A poor mic choice and placement will only enhance in a negative sense. And on down the line. I would think that the source and the speakers would probably be of equal importance, with the preamp and mic coming in a close second. Then there is the whole question of recording media to consider.

Since I've been on this Beatles kick lately, I do find it interesting that their records communicate well on everything from a cheap phonograph to a high end studio. What does the Hiearchy theory say about that? Just curious.

[drstawl]

>An awesome CD player powering a crap amp and some computer speakers will still provide a crap sound.

>A crap CD player with a good amp and awesome speakers will provide a very good sound.

Thank You! My point exactly.

[c7sus]

Does this system use tube speaker cables or just regular speaker cables? I'd skip the $6000 cd player and get those tube speaker cables.......................... With the money he saves your singer can then get a good quality tube mic stand, too.

[esactun]

Man, those tube cables... so WARM and PUNCHY!

[JuSumPilgrim]

Special K, I dont think you are applying the theory right.


It applies to recording not to home entertainment. The most important thing in a recording is the sound source. The quality of the singer's voice (tone, timbre, inflection, expression, etc) and the quality and tuning of the instruments. That will have the most profound effect on the overall quality of your recording. If you get that right the next most important thing are the mics and room followed by the pres, converters, comps, cables, and recording medium.

[TexRoadkill]

Makes sense to me. After getting all me gear setup I realized my guitar tone just wasnt cutting it. I got a new axe and Voila!

Without the right sound to record it doesnt matter what you record with.

[Special K]

Originally posted by JuSumPilgrim
Special K, I dont think you are applying the theory right.


It applies to recording not to home entertainment. The most important thing in a recording is the sound source. The quality of the singer's voice (tone, timbre, inflection, expression, etc) and the quality and tuning of the instruments. That will have the most profound effect on the overall quality of your recording. If you get that right the next most important thing are the mics and room followed by the pres, converters, comps, cables, and recording medium.

I totally agree with this...A crap singer will sound crap no matter what quality equipment they are running through (unless they are produced to sound artificial and commercial )

[NYMorningstar]

Originally posted by Special K
The hirearchy theory states that the source of the sound is the most important component to get right...i.e
K

It makes sense that this theory applies to recording sound. Keeping in mind that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, it also makes sense that this theory works in the opposite direction reproducing the sound, thereby making the speakers the most important link in the playback chain. [speakers >amp > CD player]

[chessrock]

Originally posted by JuSumPilgrim
The most important thing in a recording is the sound source. The quality of the singer's voice (tone, timbre, inflection, expression, etc) and the quality and tuning of the instruments. That will have the most profound effect on the overall quality of your recording. If you get that right the next most important thing are the mics and room followed by the pres, converters, comps, cables, and recording medium.

Hmmm. Let's look at this theory a little closer:

Situation/Signal Chain A:

Rode NT1>Audio Buddy>Apoge Digital Converter>Hard Drive.

OR

Situation/Signal Chain B:

Neumann U87>Focusrite Red>Cassette 4-track multitrack recorder.

If I take your theory literally, then what you are saying is B will be superior to A, but I think I'm going to have to differ with you on this.

The most important thing is the Performance. No arguments there.

But after that, I'm sticking with the "Reverse Signal Chain Rule" which implies that with the exception of the performance, the heirarchy of importance works in reverse.

[JuSumPilgrim]

Easy, Chessrock.


When I said recording medium, I assumed the standard 44.1/24 audiophile quality soundcard which could be had for less than some 4 tracks.

The "reverse chain rule" you say,,,,after the recording medium would come the cables....youre telling me that cables are more important than mics and pres? Or that the pre is more important the mic?

[chessrock]

I guess that's the problem isn't it? Actually, if the chords suck, then yea, it is the most important -- think about how much damage a crappy/defective chord could do? I know what you're saying though, and it's a tough question to answer.

Maybe the best way to put it would be: Don't use anything that sucks.

Alright, that's the new "Chessrock Heirarchy" commandment . . .

THOU SHALT NOT USE SUCKY GEAR ! ! (Thunder, lightning, earth rumbles)

That goes for chords, pres, mics . . . everything.

And in no particular order, either.

[c7sus]

Thread title should be changed to:

Mental Masturbation Theory

[NYMorningstar]

Originally posted by chessrock

Alright, that's the new "Chessrock Heirarchy" commandment . . .

THOU SHALT NOT USE SUCKY GEAR ! ! (Thunder, lightning, earth rumbles)

Praise the Lord!

[wes480]

Originally posted by c7sus
Does this system use tube speaker cables or just regular speaker cables? I'd skip the $6000 cd player and get those tube speaker cables.......................... With the money he saves your singer can then get a good quality tube mic stand, too.

hahaha....good call good call.

the real rule of buying a playback system...and, really recording system too...is keep it proportional.

if you have a 500 dollar pair of speakers...it makes sense to start looking in the 2-300 dollar range for a cd player...400 for an amp...

6,000 dollar anything with 400 dollar anything is bullshit. you said it, only as strong as the weakest link.

[JR#97]

good song good performance....
I'll take a good song and good performance tracked with rat shack mics on a karaoke machine over pristine recordings of bad songs and bad playing anyday...

[chessrock]

Originally posted by c7sus
Thread title should be changed to:

Mental Masturbation Theory

This WHOLE BOARD could be properly titled as such.

[philsaudio]

In a CD player the point of diminishing returns is reached pretty quickly. I have a pretty high end CD system, THeata Miles CD/ Transport and Theta Pro basic IIIA converter. It sounds a little better than a walkman, not 40x better which is how much more it cost. It would be hard to tell they were different sources if one were not allowed to A/B test the setup.

Amps ( power amps) competently designed and operated within their limits are even more difficult to tell appart. A group of people ( David Clark et al) have a standing $10,000 bet that no one can tell between two amps. You pick the amps and speakers source and music - they run the double blind ABX test and if you can tell the difference at a statistically significant level you win the money. There have been many takers and no winners.

Speakers on the other hand vary all over the place in the sound scape of things. There is usually a huge sonic signature for speakers and I consider them to add their character to the overall sound - so the speakers are the most important. Even at the same price point one model is easily distinguished from another.

Worry about your speakers first.

Phil Abbate
http://philsaudio.stryke.com
www.site-specific-systems.com