Help putting together recording/live system also to be used as Home Theater audio

[RockDawg]

First posting; great site. This is kind of detailed, but I'm trying to do something that I haven't really seen anyone else talk about or do. I'm pretty sure it can be pulled off well, but need you to poke some holes in the idea.

I'm trying to put together an integrated system that will meet three key requirements: (1) PC recording (I have Acid Pro 3, run a guitar through a POD 2 as well as keys); (2) live jams (me and my 2 year old all the way through me and the boys rockin hard); (3) core audio components/speakers for a full-surround Dolby Digital/DTS system.

I've got about $3k to play with. Here's what I'm moving toward, but could be missing the boat on something, so that's why I'm looking for your help.

Analog mixing board ($500-$800): 12-16 inputs, standard features for this price range (eq/effect sends/busses) unpowered, with enough aux outs (could use a monitor out for the center) to send seperate outs to front l/r, center, and rear l/r fed from a Dolby Digital/DTS receiver ($400) with pre-amp outputs so I can take each individual speaker and plug it into each channel.

5 unpowered PA speakers (3 same for fronts and centers, smaller same line for 2 rears). I'm looking at Yamaha and EV and can do all for about $1k.

Power Amp(s): not sure what I really need here yet, but am guessing probably two seperate amps, but don't need huge power. Guessing around $500 total for whatever configuration.

My objectives with the system are to do recording much like I have in the past - just using Acid Pro, but providing some greater flexibility for inputs, not having to be constantly changing plugs in/out of the soundcard, etc. I may cut the rear speakers for now and add a vocal effects processor (to get the same great sound for vocals as the POD gives for guitar). I've built a 100 inch screen for projecting DVDs so this also needs to really support the home theater. Finally, if it does all this, than there shouldn't be a problem with basic live playback through the board so we can just jam.

One last question on the mixing board as I've seen a lot on the analog/digital debate. Is there any value to pursuing a digital board for this? I have a feeling I'd be paying for a lot of functionality I don't really need.

Thanks for any and all advice!

[Dolemite]

IMO this is basically a bad idea. There's a reason why PA speakers are PA speakers and home theater speakers are home theater speakers. The same basically applies to all other related gear.

Even real movie theater speakers shouldn't be confused for PA speakers and vice versa. Traditional PA power amps might be useful in a certain way, but it doesn't seem economical to buy 6 channels of amplification for your home theater when you only need 2 + monitor channels for PA.

The only real overlap in these two areas is between low-end studio monitors and hifi speakers. Or perhaps you want to use your PC as a DVD player, in which case your recording sound card would provide the digital out to your receiver. Other than that, you're really talking apples and oranges.

If you want specific system advice, then ask away, but I think the combined PA/HT system is a dumb idea.

[darrin_h2000]

I use my tracking room as a theatre, with all the bells and whistles. but I dont integrate any of the equipment. I just share the room.

Its Important to use LCD progection instead of bigger units because of the space involved should be minimal. using small speakers is also a must, though Ive seen systems that used studio monitors as speakers, I dont do that.

[TexRoadkill]

It is a tall order. Bear in mind that PA speakers are HORRIBLE for monitoring if you are going to be mixing with them.

Using the mixer for surround is going to be a pain and you will need at least 5 busses. Since you will already have a surround decoder it doesnt really make since to even use the mixer for that part of the rig. Just go from the decoder to a powered speaker setup and maybe use the front speakers as part of the mixer system with a input switcher.

It would be easier to use studio monitors as part of a surround system than PA speakers. PA speakers are one trick ponys so decide if monitors or live PA speakers are more important. I guess you could use live PA speakers as the fronts and some good studio monitors for mixing and rear on the theatre setup.

No matter what you will be making some compromises. I would stick with a good recording setup and just get a cheap but decent surround package as a seperate system. The powered Klipsch 5.1 system is only $300 and great for home theatre.

[RockDawg]

Thanks Tex. I'm actually hanging in Phoenix at this moment - love this place!

I like the idea of bypassing the mixer for the home theater; I was trying to go with unpowered speakers and seperate amps to deliver more flexibility down the road, but maybe that is creating more of a pain for myself than is necessary just for the sake of a little flexibility.

The reason I am leaning more toward the PA speakers vs monitors is that I figure I can push them louder and harder than pure monitors in a "live" setting with a better sound and less risk of damage. I'd like to be able to use the setup to get a few guys together, jam with guitars, mikes, etc. and the PA speakers seemed the logical choice for that. I have a big room in the basement where all this is happening so I need some volume.

I have a good pair of Polk Audo speakers that I might use as my rears (these are big and good) which I could maybe use for monitoring also? I also have some a set of Monsoon PC speakers which (maybe I'll get slammed and if so, please tell me why) I've used for mixing in the past.

Do I really need a good set of mixing only monitors? I hate the idea of having 10+ speakers down there - all for different purposes!

Originally posted by TexRoadkill
It is a tall order. Bear in mind that PA speakers are HORRIBLE for monitoring if you are going to be mixing with them.

Using the mixer for surround is going to be a pain and you will need at least 5 busses. Since you will already have a surround decoder it doesnt really make since to even use the mixer for that part of the rig. Just go from the decoder to a powered speaker setup and maybe use the front speakers as part of the mixer system with a input switcher.

It would be easier to use studio monitors as part of a surround system than PA speakers. PA speakers are one trick ponys so decide if monitors or live PA speakers are more important. I guess you could use live PA speakers as the fronts and some good studio monitors for mixing and rear on the theatre setup.

No matter what you will be making some compromises. I would stick with a good recording setup and just get a cheap but decent surround package as a seperate system. The powered Klipsch 5.1 system is only $300 and great for home theatre.

[RockDawg]

OK great...but, I'll ask away as you suggest, as you gave me the theory that I've heard before...but, I haven't been convinced as to why??

The reason I'm looking into this option is that I've spent big bucks on home theater ONLY speakers, and although they sound great, I believe I could obtain not as good, but good enough, sound for theater, while also integrating a live/recording environment into the mix.

I'm all for making the Home Theater piece economical - to put more into the studio/recording/ive setup - but, what got me going down this path in the first place is the HT, so I'm trying to get as much out of a DUAL environment as possible. It is a big room, so size is not a problem (or maybe that is the problem as a little 400 HT only setup doesn't cut it).

Last question...any issues that you see with using the mixer/PA setup for HT from a noise perspective?

Thanks for the help!

Originally posted by Dolemite
IMO this is basically a bad idea. There's a reason why PA speakers are PA speakers and home theater speakers are home theater speakers. The same basically applies to all other related gear.

Even real movie theater speakers shouldn't be confused for PA speakers and vice versa. Traditional PA power amps might be useful in a certain way, but it doesn't seem economical to buy 6 channels of amplification for your home theater when you only need 2 + monitor channels for PA.

The only real overlap in these two areas is between low-end studio monitors and hifi speakers. Or perhaps you want to use your PC as a DVD player, in which case your recording sound card would provide the digital out to your receiver. Other than that, you're really talking apples and oranges.

If you want specific system advice, then ask away, but I think the combined PA/HT system is a dumb idea.

[wes480]

I think the PA speakers would probably sound crummy for home theater. Or hell, even music listening.

Esp. in that price range - PA stuff is generally loud, has decent bass...horn tweeters....but, in terms of actual fidelity...isn't very sensitive...or delicate sounding.

I wouldn't want to hear an orchestral score from Braveheart coming through some yamaha PA gear, personally.

But...i realize your objective of wanting the dual purpose. Home stereo speakers are going to be a disaster for jamming...so, thats out of the question. hehe. probably blow them in a week. And, I am sure your room is too big for the Klipsch little package. Esp with a 100" screen....the audio will never match the picture...

So, whats my point? Well....I think in the end, the setup you initially defined will work best for you. I think it'll be a lot of fun for your jamming and recording (though not mixing...unless you deciced to get monitors for the rear as mentioned...thats a great idea but could be costly).

I think on the home theater side you will be lacking a bit...BUT...to a lot of people...just the fact that there are 5-6 speakers playing around them..and it sounds better than TV speakers..is all the experience they need. I've been working with $300,000+ home theater for the last couple of years so I am spoiled and jaded. Don't listen to me...

I'd kill for a big room with a couple of PA speakers and a mixer just to jam in though. Get the guitar amps pumpin, few vocal mics and a keyboard running through the PA...rockin. I bet the 2 year old will be loving life.

My boys and I cram into a 14x11 room in my basement with the vocals being supplied by a TOA amp/pa combo with a 15" speaker. hehe. Painful.

In short - your PA/Recording will rock, will it work for HT...yes. But, get monitors when you can.

-Wes

[c7sus]

Mackie 824's for the fronts, 624's for the center and rear, powered sub. That should burn up most of 3 grand. You should have power to spare.

Any acoustic treatments in this basement? If it's as big as you describe it's gonna sound like a cave without some sort of treatment.

You sure you have line outs for 5.1 from your reciever?

[TexRoadkill]

The reason you NEED good monitors for mixing is because you need to know what your mixes really sound like. Good reference monitors give you a flat frequency responce and dont add their own colors to the tone.

Good home theatre speakers do add their own color to the tone. That is why some people like certain speakers over others. They want that Klipsch (or whatever) sound. If you mix on home speakers you will be compensating for that added character that the speakers give and will end up with mixes that sound great on your system but have too much bass or weird levels on other systems.

If you just need a speaker to jam with you an use any decent PA speaker and you really only need one for a vocal monitor.

If all this is really just to have some fun then dont worry about it too much. We are more obsessed with proper recording techniques but if you are just jamming with friends than get whatever works.

Glad you like Phoenix. Better leave soon. Its gonna get HOTTTTTT!

[bluesbro]

Hi All,
I have the HT & studio setup in an 20X40 room. I use seperate equipment for each setup. However, I use one amp to power my HT sub (SVS) and PA sub. If you get a passive HT sub you can save a little money.
Spend some time & money on acoustics. Damping the room is a huge improvement. My biggest challenge was hiding all the cable.
I still have to roll up the mics & stands and slide the couches over to veiw my HT. I put the drum set behind the 100" HT screen which works out good.
There's alot of little things that you will need to address to make this work and look good.
I love this room.
Listen to the guys above about speakers. I have 15 speakers in this room. Each serves different functions.
Forget the 5.1 mixer thing. Get a real 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 receiver or seperates for your HT. It took 3 months to build, drywall, soundproof, electric, water, lights, etc. to finish this room. Just take your time and think EVERYTHING out. It will be, like mine, the most popular room in the house.
Good Luck
Bluesbro

[Mark H.]

RockDawg,

Let's say you're not terribly concerned about super high fidelity, audiophile-quality playback; that you want theater-realistic volume levels from your home theater setup; and that you'd like to be able to use your main (front-channel) speakers to jam once in awhile. Your kid is 2 years old, so you don't want stuff he/she can ruin, and the point of all of this is having FUN.

If this sounds good, go to Audiogon.com and type in the word "Altec" at the top of the page. There's a guy named Sonny, in Florida, who has an old pair of Altec A6 "Voice of the Theater" speakers for sale for $1200 OBO, and experience shipping oversized items by truck (shrink-wrapped on a pallet), which is not as expensive as you might think. He also has a pair of gigantic A7s for the same price. Both are UGLY, of course, but so what? You can paint them the color of your room, you can cover them in fabric, you can build stands to raise them up and hide them behind screens -- or, you can just have a really huge and wonderfully ugly pair of Voice of the Theater speaker cabinets in your home theater room.

Horns don't need a lot of power to be driven to ear-shattering levels, so you could do a lot with relatively little amplification (at least on the treble and mids -- the big woofers would like more power, of course).

How do they sound? I suspect they sound like an old theater. :-)

Best wishes,

Mark H.

[KingstonRock]

As c7sus suggested hr824s for the front pair and center channel hr624s for the rear and the matching sub, hr120 or something. Right there is your $3000, but with this powered setup you could get away with a dvd player with built-in dolby-digital/dts, preferably one that can handle surround sacd or dvd-audio sources : ). This way you have no need for a reciever of any sort, have an insanely loud and powerful home theater system AND super-accurate surround sound monitoring if you ever need it. I guess this doesnt cover jamming or recording and i've already wasted your $3000, maybe more, but it sounds like a dream to me!!